Steven Avery
Administrator
Look at Cyprian usage
John Bugenhagen
- Thread starter Steven Avery
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Steven Avery
Administrator
p. 436-441
Jonas propheta expositus
Jonas propheta expositus ...
books.google.com
Steven Avery
Administrator
Igitur nunc dico de ministris Euan gelij & baptifmatis Christi & cenx Do minicæ, fiue de teftimonio trium teftium, quod minister homo etiamsi sit fan Ctus Petrus, nihil nouum ibi facit aut facere potest, pręter solum ministerium, ipsi à Christo mandatum, id eft, Minis ster in ministerio Spiritus, fiue sanctus fiue non sanctus, non facit Euangelium (vt crassissime certam ueritatě dícam) sed administrat siue prædicat Euangelis um Christi, Et in aqua Christi, id eft, in baptifmo, non sanctificat aqua,ut pose fit abluere peccata hominis qui baptiza tur, id quod tamen magno ferio dixit & docuit Cyprianus pro suo anabaptifmo, id est, Minister non facit ibi baptifmű, sed suo ministerio administrat & tradit ibi baptismum Christi, quem Christus e in inftis
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instituit & dedit sue Ecclefiæ, In Sangui ne Christi etiam, id eft, in cœna Domis ni, Minifter fiue sanctus ut Petrus, fiue non sanctus ut ludas & adulter aliquis, ocultus Sodomita &c. ut nõ dicam illas nugas, rasus siue non rasus, unctus siuę nõ unctus, non facit nobis, ad cœnam Domini conuenientibus, corpus et san guinem Domini, siue illam cœna, quía hoc nulli creaturæ à Deo cõcessum eft, nec habet hoc institutio Christi, sed ad ministrat et tradit ibi nobis institutiõem Chrifti, & in illa institutione siue sermone Chrifti corpus & fanguinem illius, qui ibi loquitur (non enim funt uerba Sacrificuli) Accipite, comedite, Hoc eft corpus meum &c. quemadmodum Paulus dicit, Ego accepi à Domino,åd & tradidi vobis, quod Dominus Iefus in ea nocte qua tradebatur accepit panem &c.
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Therefore now I say of the ministers Euan gelij & the baptism of Christ & the cenx Do minicæ, fiue of the teftimony of the three teftiums, that the minister man even if he is a fan of Ctus Peter, does nothing new there or can do, but only the ministry, himself a command from Christ, that is, He who is in the ministry of the Spirit, whether he is holy or not holy, does not do the Gospel (vt. And in the water of Christ, that is, in baptism, the water does not sanctify, so as to wash away the sins of the person who is being baptized, this is what Cyprian said and taught on a great day. for his anabaptism, that is, the minister does not perform baptism there, but by his ministry administers and delivers there the baptism of Christ, which Christ from within
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instituit & dedit sue Ecclefiæ, In Sangui ne Christi etiam, id eft, in cœna Domis ni, Minifter fiue sanctus ut Petrus, fiue non sanctus ut ludas & adulter aliquis, ocultus Sodomita &c. ut nõ dicam illas nugas, rasus siue non rasus, unctus siuę nõ unctus, non facit nobis, ad cœnam Domini conuenientibus, corpus et san guinem Domini, siue illam cœna, quía hoc nulli creaturæ à Deo cõcessum eft, nec habet hoc institutio Christi, sed ad ministrat et tradit ibi nobis institutiõem Chrifti, & in illa institutione siue sermone Chrifti corpus & fanguinem illius, qui ibi loquitur (non enim funt uerba Sacrificuli) Accipite, comedite, Hoc eft corpus meum &c. quemadmodum Paulus dicit, Ego accepi à Domino,åd & tradidi vobis, quod Dominus Iefus in ea nocte qua tradebatur accepit panem &c.
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Therefore now I say of the ministers Euan gelij & the baptism of Christ & the cenx Do minicæ, fiue of the teftimony of the three teftiums, that the minister man even if he is a fan of Ctus Peter, does nothing new there or can do, but only the ministry, himself a command from Christ, that is, He who is in the ministry of the Spirit, whether he is holy or not holy, does not do the Gospel (vt. And in the water of Christ, that is, in baptism, the water does not sanctify, so as to wash away the sins of the person who is being baptized, this is what Cyprian said and taught on a great day. for his anabaptism, that is, the minister does not perform baptism there, but by his ministry administers and delivers there the baptism of Christ, which Christ from within
Steven Avery
Administrator
Facebook - NT Textual Criticism - 2025
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTT...6405459701&reply_comment_id=23946562638337411
Timothy Decker - the Arian quote comes from Luther's Pastor-Teacher John Bugenhagen, Luther may have agreed but I have seen no such connection given by Luther.
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Grantley McDonald is good on this in his BCEME book.
Biblical Criticism in Early Modern Europe:
Erasmus, the Johannine Comma and Trinitarian Debate.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Q6BODAAAQBAJ&pg=PA67
p. 67
While Jerome believed that these words could refute heretics, Bugenhagen argued they in fact strengthened the blasphemy of the Arians, against whom John struggled so hard in his gospel and in this epistle. ... Indeed, Bugenhagen suggested that the comma was invented by Arians, for if the Father, Word and Holy Spirit were one in the same way as the spirit, water and blood are one, then the Arians would have won. To attribute such a blasphemy to John is to blaspheme the Son of God to whom John testified.35
35 Bugenhagen 1550, d71-8v.
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Jonas propheta expositus (1550)
John Bugenhagen
https://books.google.com/books?id=Efg7AAAAcAAJ&pg=PP436
... At Hieronymus dicit & contendit, hanc additionem for te telum futurum contra Arrhianos, qd quale fit iam ante dixi, Non indigemus istis emendicatis suffragiis, ad confira mandam coęqualitatem in diuina triniz tate. ....
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All of this is a fascinating study, the historical doctrinal views for the heavenly and earthly witnesses are an amazing and edifying and educational study!
There are others who also took other unusual views, both for and against the verse.
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" for if the Father, Word and Holy Spirit were one in the same way as the spirit, water and blood are one, then the Arians would have won."
This is more likely to occur with the Latin text than the Greek Textus Receptus text, where there is more distinction between the grammar of the 7th and 8th verse.
In the Latin text it led to the quirky omission of the last phrase of the earthly witnesses in some manuscripts, and that can even be seen in the Complutensian Polyglot (maybe the Lateran Council.)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTT...6405459701&reply_comment_id=23946562638337411
Timothy Decker - the Arian quote comes from Luther's Pastor-Teacher John Bugenhagen, Luther may have agreed but I have seen no such connection given by Luther.
=====================
Grantley McDonald is good on this in his BCEME book.
Biblical Criticism in Early Modern Europe:
Erasmus, the Johannine Comma and Trinitarian Debate.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Q6BODAAAQBAJ&pg=PA67
p. 67
While Jerome believed that these words could refute heretics, Bugenhagen argued they in fact strengthened the blasphemy of the Arians, against whom John struggled so hard in his gospel and in this epistle. ... Indeed, Bugenhagen suggested that the comma was invented by Arians, for if the Father, Word and Holy Spirit were one in the same way as the spirit, water and blood are one, then the Arians would have won. To attribute such a blasphemy to John is to blaspheme the Son of God to whom John testified.35
35 Bugenhagen 1550, d71-8v.
===============================
Jonas propheta expositus (1550)
John Bugenhagen
https://books.google.com/books?id=Efg7AAAAcAAJ&pg=PP436
... At Hieronymus dicit & contendit, hanc additionem for te telum futurum contra Arrhianos, qd quale fit iam ante dixi, Non indigemus istis emendicatis suffragiis, ad confira mandam coęqualitatem in diuina triniz tate. ....
==============================
All of this is a fascinating study, the historical doctrinal views for the heavenly and earthly witnesses are an amazing and edifying and educational study!
There are others who also took other unusual views, both for and against the verse.
===============================
" for if the Father, Word and Holy Spirit were one in the same way as the spirit, water and blood are one, then the Arians would have won."
This is more likely to occur with the Latin text than the Greek Textus Receptus text, where there is more distinction between the grammar of the 7th and 8th verse.
In the Latin text it led to the quirky omission of the last phrase of the earthly witnesses in some manuscripts, and that can even be seen in the Complutensian Polyglot (maybe the Lateran Council.)
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