Michael Swift on 8 'holies' in Revelation 4:8

Steven Avery · Feb 8, 2020

Sister Thread

Pure Bible Forum
Textus Receptus Academy - Revelation 11:17-18 - Luke Carpenter - Alexandrinus
https://purebibleforum.com/index.ph...8-luke-carpenter-alexandrinus.1580/#post-6259

=======================

Facebook
Pure Bible
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/2753468398078365/

Facebook
Textus Receptus Academy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467217787457422/permalink/575903136588886/

One of the clearest evidences to me that Codex Sinaiticus is a work produced at Mt Athos by Simonides and his Greek Orthodox kin is the very blatant nod to the Orthodox Octoechos in Revelation 4:8 where we find the Ἅγιος repeated an incredible and completely non-authentic 8 times. The Orthodox Octoechos was not admitted until the Quinisext Council of 692. It was not developed as a concept until Pseudo-John of Damascus in the late 7th century. Whoever our scribe is, he is a very interested party in propagandising Orthodox Byzantine tradition. This is no fourth century scribe as the eightfold tonal system would not exist for another 3 centuries. There is no way on earth that a fourth century scribe gives a nod to the 7th century Octoechos. Sorry, folks. That doesn't happen. This work is a production of Simonides. This was no mistaken scribal reduplication. This is an intentional and first hand nod to the Orthodox Octoechos. Any Eastern Orthodox church member would understand that immediately. Only a scribe steeped in Byzantine tradition does this, and no one else. It is an unmistakable earmark of Simonides. 4:8 "και αναπαυϲιν ουχ εξοϲαν ημεραϲ και νυκτοϲ λεγοντεϲ αγιοϲ · αγιοϲ · αγιοϲ · αγιοϲ · αγιοϲ · αγιοϲ ˙ αγιοϲ αγιοϲ κϲ ┬ θϲ παντοκρατωρ · ο ην και ο ων και ο ερχομενοϲ" http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?dir=next&folioNo=2&lid=en&quireNo=90&side=v&zoomSlider=0#

The specific number of 8 Ἅγιος, having 3 syllables each, indicates that the scribe is well aware of what he is doing and that they signify the 24 stichera, 3 contained in each of the 8 echos. This cannot have come from the 4th century. I cannot overstate that. This is pure 7th century Byzantine music theory at earliest.

Yes, and there's a very real reason. There eight tonal mode progressions comprised of 3 stichera in each of the eight echos. This would be very apparent to a Greek Orthodox monk trained in Byzantine music theory and to not many others. How likely is it that a scribe from the 4th century did this? It's not likely at all because it's impossible as the Octoechos system didn't even exist. In other words, it is impossible for this to be a manuscript any earlier than the 7th century. And I mean impossible. Yet, as it is in a 4th century script, it is impossible for it to be from the 7th century. Ergo, it is impossible for Sinaiticus to be anything but a modern anachronism or forgery. Impossible. Revelation 4:8 seals the deal. This is Simonides' work. He wasn't lying.

There is one verse that all scribes always get right - the Triadic Declaration. So, if it is not only not right, but duplicated, that's a giant road sign that the scribe is trying to call our attention to something very significant.

There are three syllables in Ἅγιος. Multiplied 8 times, we arrive at 24 syllables signifying the 24 stichera of the Octoechos. That is its significance and its only significance. Simonides might as well have signed his name to this manuscript. Connect the dots. Sinaiticus is an anachronistic celebration of all things Greek Orthodox. It rings back to a time of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople. It belies the blatant nationalism of its scribe .

If you listen to the various stichera of the echos, you find that even in English they begin with the traditional 'Hagia' during Orthros. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMq8yrv6WGo

Mirrored

Vigilant Citizen Forums
The curious anomaly of the Orthodox Octoechos
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-critical-text-criticized.3461/page-4#post-269751

Quinisext Council
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinisext_Council

Even with the eight tones, in those early years there is no indication of increasing the number of holies.
https://uocregina.ca/2019/02/28/resurrectional-tones-octoechos/

Steven Avery · Feb 8, 2020

Revelation 4:8 (AV)
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him;
and they were full of eyes within:
and they rest not day and night,
saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty,
which was, and is, and is to come.

Pure Bible
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pur...74381371100&reply_comment_id=2754278167997388

It looks like everything early is 3, quite an array:

Ephraem
Tertullian
Primasius of Hadrumetum (540)
Fulgentius
Victorinus (c. 260)
Apringius of Béja (548)
Beatus of Liebana (786)

Syriac, Armenian, Aethiopic, Arabic

(Andreas may be too ubiquitious to have a single entry.)

Maybe diserte is explained in the collation list. Which is in the front of Volume 1

Catalog and description
https://archive.org/.../HoskierApokalyp.../page/n67/mode/2up

Vol 2 may have more info, but is not as easily available.

===================

Patristic Commentaries on Revelation
Francis X. Gumerlock
http://www.kerux.com/doc/2302a5.asp
===================

Thus Juan Hernandez, like many not capable of thinking outside the Tischendorf box easily, has to reverse logic on its head:

Codex Sinaiticus: An Early Christian Commentary on the Apocalypse? (2015)
https://www.academia.edu/.../Codex_Sinaiticus_An_Early...

Finally, we have the multiplication of ‘Holies’ in Revelation 4:8. Rather than reading, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty’, Sinaiticus ascribes holiness to God eight times – just one shy of a perfect nine– which would be capable of crediting three ‘holies’ to each member of the Godhead.While we stop short of attributing such a motive to our scribe, it is nonetheless interesting that the later Trisagion Hymn does precisely that. 27 Perhaps the hymn’s origin can be traced to this kind of incremental expansion.

Revelation 4:8 (AV)
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him;
and they were full of eyes within:
and they rest not day and night,
saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty,
which was, and is, and is to come.

All the extant evidences before about 900 AD are for 3 holies.

============================
ALL EXTANT TRUE EARLY EVIDENCES ARE 3 Holies

Tertullian (c. 200)
Victorinus of Petovium (Pettau) (c. 270)
Athanasius (c. 340)
Ephraem (c. 350)
Rufinus (c.400)
Chromatius of Aquileia - (c 400)
Codex Alexandrinus (A) (c. 450)
Fulgentius (c. 510)
Primasius of Hadrumetum (540)
Apringius of Béja (548)
Andreas of Caesarea (c. 620)
Bede the Venerable (c. 720)
Beatus of Liebana (786)
Codex Polyphyrianus (P) (800s)
Smaragdus of Saint-Miheil (c. 820)

Tertullian on Prayer 3.2-3
https://books.google.com/books?id=L-pTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA682
Otherwise, when is the name of God not "holy," and "hallowed" through Himself, seeing that of Himself He sanctifies all others-He to whom that surrounding circle of angels cease not to say, "Holy, holy, holy? "

Victorinus of Petovium
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm
7-10. The first living creature was like to a lion, and the second was like to a calf, and the third had a face like to a man, and the fourth was like to a flying eagle; and they had six wings, and round about and within they were full of eyes; and they had no rest, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord Omnipotent. And the four and twenty elders, falling down before the throne, adored God.

Athanasius on Luke 10:22
For the fact of those venerable living creatures offering their praises three times, saying “Holy, holy, holy,” proves that the three Subsistences are perfect, just as in saying “Lord” they declare the one essence.
https://books.google.com/books?id=6y41DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA67
Also by Kevin N. Giles (2009)
https://books.google.com/books?id=dAruAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA143

Rufinus
So we read in John's Apocalypse about the seraphim: “And they rested not day and night, saying, 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of armies, who was, and who is, and is to come, the Almighty.'”
https://books.google.com/books?id=6y41DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA67

Chromitius of Aquileia
"For, he saw the throne of God in heaven; he saw the Son of God sitting at the right hand of the Father; he saw the choirs of angels; he saw the twenty-four elders and the "four living creatures full of eyes on their front and back", shouting and saying with an unceasing voice in praise of the Lord: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of hosts", heaven and earth are full of your glory. Hosanna in the highest."
https://books.google.com/books?id=gKA8CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA59
https://francisgumerlock.com/.../Ch-2-Chromatius-of...

Apringius
"In this very teaching the worship of the Trinity is proclaimed and without rest the name Holy is declared by a threefold repetition. And this worship that is proffered to the one, omnipotent God reveals the Trinity of a single substance"
https://books.google.com/books?id=GWPV4-A9Kr0C&pg=PA42

Bede
"Throughout the whole time of the world the holy living creatures proclaim the one dominion, the deity, the omnipotence and the eternality of the Holy Trinity, while the worship of the intelligent creation remains unending in heaven."
https://books.google.com/books?id=GWPV4-A9Kr0C&pg=PA126

Andreas of Caesarea
"these holy powers do not rest, never ceasing the divine hymnody and offering the threefold blessing to the Tri-hypostatic Divinity. And the who is and who was and who is to come we said means the Holy Trinity"
https://books.google.com/books?id=AmMEhsEYHUsC&pg=PA84

Smaragdus
The holy living creatures affirm throughout every age the one dominion of the deity and the omnipotence and eternity of the holy Trinity with the perpetual praise of the rational creation abiding in heaven.

===========================

Versions

Latin Vulgate
Syriac,
Coptic
Armenian,
Aethiopic,
Arabic

================

Patristic Commentaries on Revelation
Francis X. Gumerlock
http://www.kerux.com/doc/2302a5.asp

ACCS
https://books.google.com/books?id=6y41DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA57
https://books.google.com/books?id=6y41DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA67

Check Zosimas

DRP
https://www.facebook.com/.../permalink/575903136588886/...

===============

The later Byzantine era started with larger numbers

ms. 046 - 9 times - 900s
Vatican Library, Vat. gr. 2066, fol. 249-268

============

Oecumenius - 7 times - 990 AD
https://books.google.com/books?id=JORIkBaj9HcC&pg=PA23

That they say “holy” seven times indicates that they do this often and without ceasing, for the holy scriptures customarily use the number seven to mean “many.” The following may serve as examples: “The barren has borne seven children, but but she who has many children is grown weak;" "seven eyes of the Lord that range through the whole earth"; "the righteous person is saved seven times from necessity".

Also, translated by John N. Suggit:
https://books.google.com/books?id=GGpSK6yLzvUC&pg=PA58

============

After that, many Byz have 9, with occasional other counts.

=================

Caesarius of Arles (no discussion of 3x) c. 530
https://books.google.com/books?id=GWPV4-A9Kr0C&pg=PA70

Dionysius the Areopagite - 3x
http://www.historicism.com/Elliott/Appendix1-3.htm#_ftn84
Andreas ... For first, besides other authors, he quotes Dionysius, the so-called Areopagite
Viz. on Apoc. iv. 8, “And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.”.

=====================

Steven Avery · Dec 19, 2020

Also check:

BCHF
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2071&start=30

===========================

Response to a Bad Translation of the Book of Revelation: (2014)
What’s Wrong with a Good Translation?
Juan Hernandez (Juan Hernández Jr,)
https://www.academia.edu/39410754/R...velation_Whats_Wrong_with_a_Good_Translation_

For them, “[g]rammatical errors, awkward sentence structures and perplexing vocabulary” (p. 6) are just as inappropriate and unacceptable as they are for the modern religious readership. The scores of changes to the text of the Apocalypse in the fourth-century are primary evidence of this very fact. Numerous are the words and phrases that are transposed, substituted, harmonized, and/or grammatically altered in Codex Sinaiticus. The process is repeated once again—and this time with even greater gusto—in the seventh-century, with the arrival of a separate group of correctors. Hundreds of the Apocalypse's idiosyncratic and infelicitous readings from the fourth-century were scrubbed from its text—upwards of 300 in all—and all in the service of a later Christian readership. In other words, sparing the Apocalypse’s readers from its “defective form” appears to have been the name of the game from the very beginning.

And we also have the multiplication of “Holies” in Revelation 4:8, where—rather than simply saying, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty”—Codex Sinaiticus ascribes eight holies to God just one shy of a perfect nine.

Steven Avery · Jan 8, 2021

Some scholars have been contacted .. e.g. on

Academia.edu:
Juan Hernandez
Armin Karim - The Meaning of the Trisagion in East and West
Alexandra Nikiforova
also Steven Freisen

Maria Barbaki - PhD | University of the Aegean, Mytilene

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maria_Barbaki

Eugenia Scarvelis Constantinou

Wilbur Pickering should be corrected

Steven Avery · Jan 8, 2021

Simonides likely picked it up from:

Theoretikon mega tes mousikes (1832)
Chrysanthos of Madyto
https://archive.org/details/theoretikonmegat00chry/page/n6/mode/2up

Chrysanthos of Madytos - ( c. 1770-1846)
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Chrysanthos_of_Madytos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysanthos_of_Madytos

Octoechos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octoechos
Oktōēchos
(here transcribed "Octoechos"; Greek: ὁ Ὀκτώηχος Greek pronunciation: [okˈtóixos];[1] from ὀκτώ "eight" and ἦχος "sound, mode" called echos; Slavonic: Осмогласие, Osmoglasie from о́смь "eight" and гласъ, Glagolitic: ⰳⰾⰰⱄⱏ, "voice, sound") is the eight-mode system used for the composition of religious chant in Byzantine, Syriac, Armenian, Georgian, Latin and Slavic churches since the Middle Ages. In a modified form the octoechos is still regarded as the foundation of the tradition of monodic chant in the Byzantine Rite today.
... Byzantine Chant performance practice has been computationally compared to the theory by Chrysanthos

Hagiopolitan Octoechos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagiopolitan_Octoechos
The Octoechos as a liturgical concept which established an organization of the calendar into eight-week cycles, was the invention of monastic hymnographers at Mar Saba in Palestine and in Constantinople. It was formally accepted in the Quinisext Council of 692, which also aimed to replace the exegetic poetry of the kontakion and other homiletic poetry, as it was sung during the morning service (Orthros) of the cathedrals.

Steven Avery · Jan 8, 2021

And for background, the early church writers on Revelation 4:8.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...k/575903136588886/?comment_id=576140189898514
It looks like everything early is 3, quite an array:

Ephraem
Tertullian
Primasius of Hadrumetum (540)
Fulgentius
Victorinus (c. 260)
Apringius of Béja (548)
Beatus of Liebana (786)

Syriac, Armenian, Aethiopic, Arabic

(Andreas may be too ubiquitious to have a single entry.)

Maybe diserte is explained in the collation list. Which is in the front of Volume 1

Catalog and description
https://archive.org/.../HoskierApokalyp.../page/n67/mode/2up

Vol 2 may have more info, but is not as easily available.

===================

Patristic Commentaries on Revelation
Francis X. Gumerlock
http://www.kerux.com/doc/2302a5.asp
===================

Thus Juan Hernandez, like many not capable of thinking outside the Tischendorf box easily, has to reverse logic on its head:

Codex Sinaiticus: An Early Christian Commentary on the Apocalypse? (2015)
https://www.academia.edu/13710418/Codex_Sinaiticus_An_Early_Christian_Commentary_on_the_Apocalypse

Finally, we have the multiplication of ‘Holies’ in Revelation 4:8. Rather than reading, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty’, Sinaiticus ascribes holiness to God eight times – just one shy of a perfect nine– which would be capable of crediting three ‘holies’ to each member of the Godhead. While we stop short of attributing such a motive to our scribe, it is nonetheless interesting that the later Trisagion Hymn does precisely that. 27 Perhaps the hymn’s origin can be traced to this kind of incremental expansion.

2.7 On Andrew of Caesarea’s application of the Trisagion Hymn to each member of the Trinity see: J. Schmid, Studien zur Geschichte des griechischen Apokalypse-Textes 3 vols (Munich, 195 5-5(5): 1, Der Apokalypsc-Kommentar des Andreas von Kaisarea, Munchener theologische Studien 1, Historische Abteilung 1, p. 15,11. 12-15.

Click to expand...

================================
Guiding to a Blessed End: Andrew of Caesarea and His Apocalypse Commentary in the Ancient Church
Eugenia Scarvelis Constantinou

Guiding to a Blessed End

Apocalyptic fervor gripped the Eastern Roman Empire as late antiquity drew to a close. The empire confronted bubonic plague, civil war, famine, and catastrophic Persian invasions. Meanwhile, Andrew, archbishop of Caesarea, was tasked with writing what would become the first Greek patristic...

books.google.com

The Trisagion had been primarily regarded as Trinitarian in Chalcedonian circles. Even though the exact words of the Trisagion are not found in the Apocalypse, Church Fathers considered it ‘'located” there in Rev. 4:8 (as well as in Isaiah 6:3), because of the repetition of the word “holy” in the angelic hymn: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty.” As we have seen, in chapter 10, Andrew expends much effort justifying the Chalcedonian view that the Trisagion hymn is Trinitarian, proving that "holy, holy, hoiy' is properly said of all three members

Steven Avery · Jan 8, 2021

Textus Receptus Academy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...k/575903136588886/?comment_id=575942889918244

Revelation 4:8 (AV)
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him;
and they were full of eyes within:
and they rest not day and night,
saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty,
which was, and is, and is to come.

Hoskier collation
https://archive.org/details/Hoskier-ConcerningTheTextOfTheApokalypse/page/n949/mode/2up

Laparola
http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php?rif1=73&rif2=4:8
(Tertullian 3x)

Codex Sinaiticus: An Early Christian Commentary on the Apocalypse?
Juan Hernandez (2015)
https://www.academia.edu/13710418/Codex_Sinaiticus_An_Early_Christian_Commentary_on_the_Apocalypse
(Juan is well-meaning, but trapped in the circular box, so Sinaiticus becomes the source for this and that.)

Metzger (1968)
https://archive.org/details/TheTextOfTheNewTestament2ndEdit/page/n203/mode/2up
Metzger (2005)
https://archive.org/details/TheTextOfNewTestament4thEdit/page/n287/mode/2up

Sinaiticus CSP
http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manus...lioNo=2&lid=en&quireNo=90&side=v&zoomSlider=0

First column, rows 5-6-7

=====

What Michael shares can be collated on one blog post, and then shared. I would suggest first with some Greek Orthodox scholars, since textual critics are skilled in being clueless!

Steven Avery
Metzger has a bit in 1968 (same in 2005), see my post above, but he forgets to mention that Vaticanus Revelation is late medieval.

To any clear thinker, this is the type of anomaly about which
"clearly demonstrates the non-antiquity of Aleph" looks accurate. It would push it forward hundreds of years, and give great support to a Simonides and Mt. Athos operation.

However modern pseudo-scholars who are textual criticism dupes are very skilled at "dancing".

And I have a section on palaeographic puzzles on PBF. This should be added there and/or given its own page.

This starts in the middle of verse 8 and has our 8 holies and marks.
http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manus...lioNo=2&lid=en&quireNo=90&side=v&zoomSlider=0

Hoskier collation
https://archive.org/details/Hoskier-ConcerningTheTextOfTheApokalypse/page/n949/mode/2up

=====================

MORE ON THAT THREAD TO BE CONTINUED

Steven Avery
It is very likely that the earliest true many-holies is 046, 10th century, and Oecumenius around 990 AD.

Codex Vaticanus 2066

Codex Vaticanus 2066 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Codex Vaticanus 2066, designed by 046 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), α 1070 (von Soden), formerly it was known also as Codex Basilianus, previously it was designated by Br or B2.[1] It is a Greek uncial manuscript of the New Testament written on vellum. The manuscript paleographically has been assigned to the 10th century by the INTF, though some palaeographers proposed the 9th century. Scrivener proposed even the 8th century.[2]

For fun, here is Pickering with the faux text.
Apparently Hodges/Farsted also had the 9 holies.

You can actually see Wilbur Pickering giving a translation with nine holies here:

https://www.prunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Revelation-ff.pdf

Using lectio difficilior .. despite the fact that ALL the early evidence is for 3 holies (maybe he thought Sinaiticus was truly ancient, and that will bamboozle any analysis.)

=========================

Where do we have the Sinaiticus 8 referenced as 9? Is there a spot or two? Remember, 9 is a common Byz reading (2nd place).8 is basically just Sinaiticus and could easily have come from Simonides working with the Octoechos. And the special accent marks are now a big part of that study.

And have you looked at that fourth one, which is odd?

And I have seen the Sinaiticus text looked upon as a possible trigger for the Trisagion Hymn, for those who actually think Sinaiticus is ancient and think backwards. (Juan Hernandez) However, even that is hard to correlate. Generally Sinaiticus is not mentioned in these studies, Hernandez has to figure out a way to pretend that Sinaiticus is early, against the evidence.

Thus, Sinaiticus becomes a pre-Andreas commentary, which makes no sense at all.

Steven Avery · Jan 9, 2021

From
David Robert Palmer - two sections
http://bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf
http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/Revelation.pdf

It is absurd to make a first century conjecture that not only was this an allusion to the Trinity, but that the allusion was multiplying 3x3.

Steven Avery · Jan 9, 2021

Bianchini on ms. 2055 046
https://books.google.com/books?id=x2dCAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR524

Steven Avery · Jan 10, 2021

While Hodges and Farsted and Pickering both go for the late Byzantine reading of 9 holies, Robinson-Pierpont has it mentioned as a B variant.

https://bibletranslation.ws/down/Robinson_Pierpont_GNT.pdf

Rv4:8 Καὶ τὰ {Bτὰ♦-}τέσσαρα ζῷα, ἓν καθ' ἓν ἔχον {B ἔχον♦ αὐτῶν ἔχον}{N ἔχον♦ αὐτῶν ἔχων} ἀνὰ πτέρυγας ἓξ κυκλόθεν, καὶ ἔσωθεν γέμουσιν ὀφθαλμῶν, καὶ ἀνάπαυσιν οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτός, λέγοντες, Ἅγιος, {B Ἅγιος ἅγιος ἅγιος ♦ἅγιος 9 times} ἅγιος ,ἅγιος, κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος.

Variant readings within the Byzantine text stream are shown within brackets thus: {B...}

Steven Avery · Jun 18, 2021

Witness of God is Greater
Its original Greek text is found in the oldest Greek manuscripts of the Octoechos, Sinait. gr. 1593 (fol. 66r) as well as in the eleventh-century Sinait. gr. 778 (fol. 38r). The

Michael Swift on 8 'holies' in Revelation 4:8

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator

Guiding to a Blessed End

Steven Avery

Administrator

Codex Vaticanus 2066 - Wikipedia

Attachments

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator

Steven Avery

Administrator