Romans 9:5 - Murray Harris

Steven Avery

Administrator
WIP

Murray Harris comes close, and he is very comprehensive, I may stick his pages up here, or at least the most salient sections.

For now:



Murray Harris actually gets close to accepting the AV text.
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/origen.2266/page-3#post-8687
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
The post above


Murray Harris p.166

“the natural association of θεὸς with εὐλογητὸς”

As we see in the AV text and is missing in your English corrections.

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And right after that Murray talks of two possible translations, the first is the AV pure Bible, #5 on his chart, but he prefers the second, one of the corruptions.

So he does get close.

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On p.161 he goes into the issue that the two words are normally in the reverse order, “a pattern of Biblical usage” (p.162) Looks like much ado about nothing. He actually makes a decent point about the “dominant thought” - akin to what I shared above about “emphasis.” And then more explanation is given by Winer.

There also is a good spot where he connect Christ with two related descriptors, "over all" and blessed for ever. Around p. 162, I will look for it. (I have pictures now of all the pages, Google varies in showing pages based on PC, iPad, previous use. )

I may expand this when on puter rather than iPad :).

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Ironically, the chapter title tells the tale!

God Blessed Forever (Romans 9:5)

An independent phrase!

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Brianrw

Member

The "natural association of θεὸς with εὐλογητὸς" is as a predicate noun + a predicate adjective describing the subject​

Harris states of "God blessed forever" that θεὸς ("God") is a "second predicate" to ὁ ὢν ("who is"). A predicate noun is "a noun or a noun phrase that follows a linking verb to provide additional information about the subject of a sentence." The first predicate is "over all" (i.e., "Christ . . . who is over all"). In other words, "Christ . . . who is (pr. 1) over all, (pr. 2) God."

In Greek, the adjective lacks the article and is therefore in the predicate position. A predicate adjective (in this case, "blessed") "describes or modifies the subject of a sentence." Therefore the one blessed is Christ, who is described as God.

To put it simply, "A predicate nominative renames the subject of a sentence whereas a predicate adjective describes the subject of a sentence." Thus the passage affirms three distinct things: Christ is over all. Christ is God. Christ as is blessed for ever (Cf. Zechariah of Mytilene, ca. 536).

One must not equivocate over terms in translation. The Greek adjective comes into English as an adjective, not a verb. Thus "blessed" should be pronounced as an adjective (ˈble-səd) to distinguish it from the verb "blessed" (pronounced blest). I.e. "Christ . . . who is over all, God blessed (ˈble-səd) for ever."

Both of these passages discussed by Harris refer to Christ as "God."
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator

If the three things describing Christ were distinct, that would be shown by a comma separating God and blessed.

The English is simple, if you just read it straight-on.
 

Brianrw

Member
If the three things describing Christ were distinct, that would be shown by a comma separating God and blessed.

The English is simple, if you just read it straight-on.

Harris (our subject and first witness)​

murray_harris_rom9-5.jpg

Cranfield (a second witness, one of Harris' sources)​

As between (i) [i.e. "who is God over all, blessed for ever," p. 465] and (ii) [i.e. your "AV and #5" reading, "who is over all, God blessed for ever," p. 465], (ii) should probably be preferred. According to this explanation, v. 5b affirms first Christ's lordship over all things (cf., e.g., 14:9; Phil 2.10) and secondly His divine nature. To take the three words ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς together [i.e., reading (i)] is less satisfactory; for a statement that Christ is 'God over all' would be open to misunderstanding--it could suggest a meaning which it is absolutely certain that Paul would never have intended (namely, that Christ is God to the exclusion of, or in superiority over, the Father). So, putting a comma at the end of v. 5a, we translate v. 5b: 'who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.' (C. E. B. Cranfield, Romans, Vol. 2 (1975), p. 469)​

In his abridged commentary, he writes concerning the above point, "We take it then that in v. 5 Paul is affirming that Christ, who, in so far as His human nature is concerned, is of the Jewish race, is also lord over all things and by nature God blessed for ever." (p. 222). How would His "human nature" contrast with His nature of being "blessed by God?" But it is obvious from the context that he understands Christ as God.

Cranfield notes that readings (iii), (iv), and (v) were deliberately formulated against readings (i), "God over all," and (ii), the AV reading, to deliberately avoid, as he says, "the use of θεὸς with reference to Christ" (p. 466):

The one substantial argument which has been adduced in favour of (iii), (iv) or (v) and against (i) and (ii) [the AV reading]--and it has been used from early times--is that the in the rest of the Pauline corpus there is no clear instance of the use of θεὸς with reference to Christ.​

He notes again on p. 468:

With regard to the one really serious argument against (i) and (ii) [the AV reading] and in favour of taking either all or part of v. 5b as an independent doxology referring to God, while it may well be true that Paul has nowhere else in the extant epistles explicitly referred to Christ as θεὸς . . . to conclude that he cannot have done so here seems to us quite unjustifiable."​

If the construction didn't refer to Christ as θεὸς, there would be no reason to address it thus.

Metzger (a third witness)​


metzger_Rom9-5.jpg


And this is in addition to the English Commentators who, without even mentioning the Greek, understand Christ in the AV is called "God." I have told you the Greek cannot form a compound adjective here. Multiple answers on Reddit and stackexchange have yielded the same answer to you. Those familiar with the Greek text (above) don't see what you are reading.

How much evidence do you need before you consider that you may really be just reading it wrongly? And making all kinds of bluster and accusations unnecessarily towards people who are trying to help you understand it?
 
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