two lines - two streams - two trees ( from Benjamin Wilkinson ) - compare Italic and Vulgate

Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Facebook - also in TRA
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467217787457422/permalink/1330462504466275/

Here is a little history of showing two stream problems.

Glenn Conjurske (1947-2001)
Doug Kutilek
Rick Norris

challenged the two streams concepts.

And I noticed that in important points they were right. The idea of putting the Old Latin with the good guys and Vulgate as bad was clearly false, and already falsified the charts.

We had learned that the Vulgate was a positive force in 1500s TR development, a partner with the Greek preservation.

And I started stating this publicly no later than 2010, one of the Baptist forums remains up.

Also I worked out how Benjamin Wilkinson brought this forth, how it fit with Adventist positions that emphasize the Waldensians, and with some complexity, how he twisted and mangled the scholarship of Frederick Nolan.

Lots of this I placed on the purebibleforum.

two lines - two streams - two trees ( from Benjamin Wilkinson )
https://www.purebibleforum.com/inde...ms-two-trees-from-benjamin-wilkinson.73/#post

Tepl mythology from Benjamin Wilkinson - part of two streams
https://www.purebibleforum.com/inde...-benjamin-wilkinson-part-of-two-streams.2777/

And then Bryan Ross took lots of this to new levels in recent years, and generally helping instruct the AV defender audience,
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Bryan Ross
The two streams of bibles model
https://gracelifebiblechurch.com/wp...bles-Model-of-Transmission-Complete-Notes.pdf

1742643689403.png



https://www.google.com/search?clien...ssion+cemented+itself+into+the+argumentation"
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Bryan Ross
https://gracelifebiblechurch.com/wp...bles-Model-of-Transmission-Complete-Notes.pdf
p. 27
27
Pastor Bryan Ross GRACELIFEBIBLECHURCH.COM
Sunday, May 26, 2019— Grace Life School of Theology—From This Generation For Ever
Lesson 89 The Two Streams of Bibles Model of Transmission: Its Origins & Accuracy, Part 3
(Old Latin vs. Latin Vulgate Dichotomy)

In the Pure Bible Facebook Group, I was able to interact with researcher Steven Avery. As it
turned out, Avery also had misgivings about the “two streams of Bibles” model but for different
reasons. Instead of questioning the paradigm via the Gothic and Peshitta translations as I had,
Avery’s doubts were primarily centered around what he perceived to be false dichotomy between
the Old Latin and Latin Vulgate. Moreover, Avery also expressed misgivings regarding
Benjamin Wilkinson, the fountainhead of the “two streams” notion and his ties to 7th Day
Adventism. In this Lesson we deal with the dichotomy between the Old Latin and the Vulgate.
Next week in Lesson 90 we will address the Adventism of Wilkinson and the paradigm’s origins.

=============================

Testing The Hark Chart
James Snapp, Jr.
www.thetextofthegospels.com

Testing the Hark Chart

www.thetextofthegospels.com www.thetextofthegospels.com

Steven Avery said...
Thanks!

Just commenting on the Hark Chart, this is something that I have been writing about for c. 10 years, this chart and others that are similar "two lines" or "two streams" analysis.

James has occasionally pointed out the problems, even back to 2014 or earlier. And two AV-contras, Doug Kutilek and Rick Norris, really helped in the correction, by pointing out the fact that you cannot put the Old Latin in a different line than the Vulgate.

The original problem goes back to Benjamin Wilkinson (1872 -1968), who mangled the excellent theories of Frederick Nolan (1784-1864)to try to fit them in with the Adventist (and sometimes Baptist) super-focus on the Waldenses. Thus they wanted the Waldenses to be on the good Old Latin line. All this was passed down by David Otis Fuller (1903-1988) to many of the name AV defenders. Note, this is not in the writings of Edward Freer Hills (1912-1981).

Bryan Ross neatly followed up and expanded on my writings:

The Two Streams of Bibles Model of Transmission: Its Origins & Accuracy

March 22, 2020 at 3:05 PM

======================================

CARM - Rick Norris
Bryan Ross mentioned your name in the third volume of his book From This Generation For Ever Volume 3: Canonicity & Transmission.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/unt...in-kjv-only-argumentation.23136/#post-1747687
 
Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Answers to Objections
2. We proved from Dr. Jacobus that the Old Latin opposed the Vulgate for 1,000 years.

and again, that Dr. Jacobus declared the textual critics
of 1600 were at least as good, if not superior to those of our day. All this evidence shows that the men
of 1611 had material ample enough to vouchsafe to us the dependability of our great Protestant Bible
As to the large number of manuscripts in existence, we have every reason to believe that the
Reformers were far better acquainted with MSS than later scholars. Dr. Jacobus in speaking of textual
critics of 1582, says:
"The present writer has been struck with the critical acumen shown at that date (1582), and the grasp
of the relative value of the common Greek manuscripts and the Latin version." --Dr. Jacobus, "Catholic
and Protestant Bible", p. 212.

We have the history of the people, we will now have the history of the Bible. Dr. Jacobus says:
"The old Latin versions were used longest by the Western Christians who would not bow to the
authority of Rome." "Bible Versions Compared." Appendix, Note 15

Moreover, later in the book I showed how the Vulgate was corrupted. I will now add another
testimony from an author whom I often quoted in my book, Dr Jacobus , to show that Jerome was a
chronic corruptor of manuscripts. And surely he was a papist as were Eusebius and Origen, Dr. Jacobus
says:
"Jerome was an earnest Christian, but at the same time a polemical theologian, with strong opinions as
to the interpretation of prophetic passages; and he allowed his polemics and his prejudices to warp his
translation in a way that Catholics frankly admit." "Roman Catholic and Protestant Bibles Compared."
p. 42.
Again, "Now some of those may be simply blunders, but not all; and to say that these are 'serious
defects' is less than truth! They betoken a willingness to tamper with the text." Idem, Appendix, Note
200

===============================

Melancthon Williams Jacobus

"Catholic and Protestant Bibles Compared" (1908-2nd ed)
https://books.google.com.pa/books?id=nq48AAAAYAAJ
https://archive.org/details/romancatholicpro00jaco/page/n3/mode/2up
https://www.amazon.com/Roman-Cathol...e between the,the existence of the Apocrypha.

7x in Vindicated
We cannot censure the Reformers for considering their sources of
information sufficient and authentic enough to settle in their minds the
infallible inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, since we have a scholar of
repute to-day rating their material as high as the material of the present.
Doctor Jacobus thus indicates the relative value of information available to
Jerome, to the translators of the King James, and to the Revisers of 1900:
“On the whole, the differences in the matter of the sources available
in 390, 1590, and 1890 are not very serious.”f114

74
As to the large number of manuscripts in existence, we have every reason
to believe that the Reformers were far better acquainted with them than
later scholars. Doctor Jacobus in speaking of textual critics of 1582, says:
“The present writer has been struck with the critical acumen shown
at that date (1582), and the grasp of the relative value of the
common Greek manuscripts and the Latin version.”f124
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Youtube
The Two Steams Of Bibles Paradigm Of Transmission: A Conversation With Dr. Dan Haifley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8_xA8GIF1o

Bryan Ross and Dan Haifley on two streams
http://www.facebook.com/bryan.ross....68cEnxJD3cwHE2LbLxCCYLS13YAveAhKVARJ2HAdkJ4il
7:00 - more Majority than TR
17:00 the Bryan Ross material and Hark Chart
20:00 - Vesuvius (Eusebius)
22:30 - from this generation forever - Volume 3
23:00 - Mark 1:2 - Isaiah - the prophets - Bryan goes to Gothic
1753530211802.png


30:40 - Ruckman Bible Babel - Wycliffe from Latin Vulgate - some KJB error say from Greek (or from Old Latin)
33:00 - gives more credit to CT than it deserves - Wilbur Pickering quote
34:30 - 16 verses list - Laurence Vance on Rheims - all 16 verses + Pericope and End of Mark
39:30 - 200+ times Rheims agrees with AV against Critical Text
43:00 - miquetoast theory from both
44:20 - verbatim identicality
45:30 - why have contras not hammered
46:25 - Wilkinson JJ Ray Ruckman Fuller history

Maranatha Baptist Church
https://www.facebook.com/maranathab...axu25xMZmrPo3c5rpu7B7g8CkfBroBtKU2VhwoNSbWUpl

Reposted by a few others on Facebook

There is a Rick Norris post, need to correct history

================================

Matthew Verschuur on Textus Receptus Academy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467217787457422/posts/1876851723160681/

Haifley had a tepid debate with Mark Ward - is the KJB readable

Haifley was interviewed by Dwayne Green
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Facebook - Bryan Ross
https://www.facebook.com/bryan.ross...68cEnxJD3cwHE2LbLxCCYLS13YAveAhKVARJ2HAdkJ4il

Steven Avery
Rick Norris - again does not give proper credit to sources.
Doug Kutilek was exposing the Wilkinson errors in 1990 and 1991, with an emphasis on how Wilkinson tried to make the Old Latin the good guy and the Vulgate the bad guy. Two main articles were:

Wilkinson’s Incredible Errors. Baptist Biblical Heritage 1, no. 3 (fall 1990)
http://www.truth.sg/resources/WilkinsonsErrorsInOabv.pdf

The Truth About the Waldensian Bible and the Old Latin Version. Baptist Biblical Heritage 2, no. 2 (summer 1991)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140209110910/http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/kutilek_waldensian.htm

Those two references are given by Doug Kutilek here:
Christian Answers
The Unlearned Men
The True Genealogy and Genesis Of King-James-Version-Onlyism
Note: Doug makes various errors, but he is ok on the basic Waldensian-Vulgate streams material.
====================
Similarly, Glenn Conjurske (1947-2001) was writing on these issues in 1994.
On Wycliffe and Vulgate and Waldensians

Olde Paths and Ancient Landmarks

www.straitegate.com
However, not sure if he goes into Two Streams.
====================
Many decades earlier "Objections" to Wilkinson had pointed out the "two streams" problems.
We don't have that writing, but we have the Wilkinson attempt to respond, including:
"My Reviewers claim, (Section I, page 9) that the "two parallel streams of Bible" (Our
Authorized Bible Vindicated, p. 43) is arbitrarily created and does not rest upon historical
authority."
=====================
As usual, Rick Norris is totally unreliable, here he tries to take credit for the work of others!
=====================
Ironically, Rick has quoted Conjurske on the issue, from 1997:
"Glenn Conjurske affirmed that
“the medieval Waldensian version in the old Romance language [was] translated from the Vulgate” (Olde Paths, July, 1997, p. 160).
=====================
FYI
The Benjamin George Wilkinson (1872-1968) error was published in 1930.
Authorized Bible Vindicated (1930)
Benjamin G. Wilkinson

Authorized Bible Vindicated TOC

www.sdadefend.com
“Fundamentally, there are only two streams of Bibles."
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
AI Overview



A specific article published in "Baptist Biblical Heritage" demonstrated that the current "King James Only" error had its origin in the mind of Benjamin G. Wilkinson (1872-1968)
.

This finding was presented in an article titled, "The Truth about the Waldensian Bible and the Old Latin Version," by Doug Kutilek, reprinted from "Baptist Biblical Heritage" 2:2, Summer 1991. The article was revised in June 2002 and again in January 2012, to address a reader inquiry about the Old Latin versions and their support of the textus receptus.

  • The Truth about the Waldensian Bible and the Old Latin ...
    The Truth about the Waldensian Bible and the Old Latin Version. by. Doug Kutilek. [Reprinted from Baptist Biblical Heritage 2:2, Summer, 1991; revised June, 200...
    Squarespace
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Brixianus
Monacensis

Freder9ck Nolan

Professor Hort says from the middle of the 4th cent., a third type, called Italic from its more restricted range, is found. It is represented by Codex Brixianus (f) of the 6th cent., now at Brescia, and Codex Monacensis (q) of the 7th cent., at Munich This text is probably a modified form of the European, produced by revision which has brought it more into accord with the Greek, and has given it a smoother

Facebook - NT Textual Criticism
https://m.facebook.com/groups/NTTextualCriticism/permalink/24728182800175387/?

OLD LATIN AFFINITY TO TR/BYZ COMPARED TO VULGATE

We know that there has been a myth in KJB circles that the Old Latin was the good guy Latin and the Vulgate was the bad guy. Among the better informed KJB people, this myth (part of the "two lines" and "Hark chart") has been overcome, and the Vulgate has been put in a sensible place, often positive, in Received Text history.

In fact, Jerome in doing the Vulgate, did remove a number of Old Latin accretions that had come into the line, so in that one sense, the Vulgate is the superior text.

On the other hand, there are places where the Old Latin (which has about 3 distinct lines based on master manuscripts, but they are not too far from one another) is in fact the superior text to the Vulgate, from the perspective of Greek Byzantine and Received Text variants.

The question is ... has anybody actually documented some dozens of spots where the Old Latin has affinity to the TR and/or Byz compared to the Vulgate? (And how about the opposite, where the Vulgate may have the more Byz/TR text.)

Such a list of variants would be very helpful.

Possibly Jack Moorman (1941-2021) touched on it, but I don't remember seeing such a specific spot.

Your thoughts and resources?

Thanks!

PS. suggest omitting discussion of the heavenly witnesses and Acts 8:37, since they were very likely in both the Old Latin and Jerome's Vulgate.
 
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