Bill Mounce - “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

Steven Avery

Administrator
CARM opening post mirrored here for permanence.
All commentary should be on the CARM thread, or on Facebook

Facebook thread
NT Greek grammarians at play
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/2051151448310067/

Facebook
Bill Brown and Bill Mounce pummel truth
(Mounce at least congenially)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/1223036351121585/?comment_id=2063404760418069&comment_tracking={"tn":"R"}

CARM - Biblical Languages
Bill Mounce - “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..." (and points back to earlier thread)
https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/biblical-languages/5791604-mounce-“in-greek-pronouns-follow-natural-gender

Pure BIble Forum
Bill Mounce - “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthread.php?1006-Bill-Mounce-%E2%80%9CIn-Greek-pronouns-follow-natural-gender-quot
Discussion starts here:
https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/biblical-languages/5688179-mounce-and-the-natural-gender-of-the-holy-spirit?p=5782058#post5782058

Emphasis added:

Steven Avery;n5782058 said:
Bill Mounce in his flash-cards

"In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.”

https://quizlet.com/120578393/greek-grammar-mounce-flash-cards/

This sounds like a rationale for shifting a pronoun for which the referent is pneuma to masculine. Since Mounce is saying you should search for a natural gender (e.g. in writing Greek.). Clearly, the Greek New Testament has no such shift, as has been discussed on this board.
Outside the occasinoal constructio ad sensum involving e.g. a girl, or a group of men, what would be the normative usage of this Mounce Rule? Are you supposed to search for the natural gender of a hurricane? a raccoon? Your thoughts? Appreciated.
Barry Hofstetter;n5783653 said:
So, while Mounce may indeed have a theological or apologetical motivation for his emphasis, he also has a real linguistic basis for his assertions.
Steven Avery;n5784169 said:
Do you agree with this statement?
Do pronouns in Greek follow natural gender?
Barry Hofstetter;n5784196 said:
Sometimes. Sometimes they follow grammatical gender. Plenty of examples of both.
Steven Avery;n5784206 said:
Which is more frequent?
Mounce is stating the above as the grammatical norm.
Do you agree?
Barry Hofstetter;n5784826 said:
I don't know, never having done or seen a statistical analysis, and I don't really care. It's a non-controversial issue, and only matters to people who think it somehow helps them out theologically.
Steven Avery;n5784933 said:
This is the good old Hofstetter shuffle dance. So would you teach this in your classes?
Is there any other Greek grammarian who gives this teaching? At any time, in any book?
Barry Hofstetter;n5785086 said:
I don't know and I don't care.
Steven Avery;n5786513 said:
The incorrect statement of Mounce is not a "theological issue" per se, it is simply an errant claim.
Steven Avery;n5787344 said:
If the Mounce statement were true, then the Greek pronouns for which the referent is an inanimate object (chair, car, sandwich) would always be neuter, the natural gender. Even if the object itself were masculine or feminine grammatical gender.
Steven Avery;n5787519 said:
Here he is actually defining natural gender.

Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar (2009)
By William D. Mounce
https://books.google.com/books?id=AjORURze1xwC&pg=PT54

.6 Natural gender means lhat a word lakes on the gender of the object it represents. We refer to a rock as an “it” because we do not regard the rock as male or female. But we refer to a man as “he” and a woman as “she.” In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not. ... .
Barry Hofstetter;n5788025 said:
I never said anything about statistics ...
Clearly Barry did reference doing a "statistical analysis".
Is this necessary for determining whether the Bill Mounce quote is accurate?

"In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.

Do Greek pronouns follow natural gender.
Are Greek pronouns neuter for chairs, cars, and sandwiches?
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
One of the notes sent to the Biblical Training. Bill Mounce.

hi, greetings... I sent a message to the Bill Mounce page, not sure if he saw it.. In the 2009 Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, he defines "Natural Gender" on p. 54 § 5.6 he writes:

6 Natural gender means that a word takes on the gender of the object it represents. We refer to a rock as an “it” because we do not regard the rock as male or female. But we refer to a man as “he” and a woman as “she.” In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not...

My concern is: "pronouns follow natural gender..." This seems very questionable. As a major example, inanimate masculine and feminine nouns that are neuter in terms of biological gender (e.g. the feminine house οἰκίᾳ), consistently take pronouns that match their grammatical gender, not their natural gender. Shouldn't this statement be corrected? It is also on flash cards (quizlets). Thanks!
 
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