Steven Avery
Administrator
Gregory Nazianzen and the heavenly and earthly witnesses
This thread will include various elements related to Gregory Nazianzen.
And there is a sister thread that focuses on recent Net discussions:
Gregory Nazianzen - and James Snapp on the grammatical discordance on BVDB
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php/threads/a.781
We will start with the most well known reference.
Likely the best source for this section:
Edward Rochie Hardy (1908-1981)
Christology of the Later Fathers (1954)
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.88945/page/n207/mode/2up
https://books.google.com/books?id=0PNnTTspIAcC&pg=PA205
Rochie discusses the 'Macedonian opponent' and gives footnotes in p. 202-207 that identifies references to:
Proverbs 30:29-31 (AV)
29 There be three things which go well, yea, four are comely in going:
30 A lion which is strongest among beasts, and turneth not away for any;
31 A greyhound; an he goat also; and a king, against whom there is no rising up.
Matthew 6:24 (AV)
No man can serve two masters:
for either he will hate the one, and love the other;
or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Exodus 25:19 (AV)
And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end:
even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
Exodus 37:8 (AV)
One cherub on the end on this side,
and another cherub on the other end on that side:
out of the mercy seat made he the cherubims on the two ends thereof.”
Roman s 11:26 (AV)
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
2 Corinthians 13:14 (AV)
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the communion of the Holy Ghost,
be with you all. Amen.
James Snapp pointed to specific commentary on BVDB
https://www.elpenor.org/gregory-nazianzen/fifth-theological.asp?pg=10
A few days ago you mentioned Gregory of Nazianzus’ statement in
“On the Holy Spirit”
(Theological Oration #5, a.k.a. Oration #31),
which was delivered against the Eunomians in 380.
The most readily available online translation, by Ch. Browne and J. Swallow, is at http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... logian.asp
. Its wording is occasionally opaque;
Tom A. Noble has taken a step to remedy this by explaining the basic flow of Gregory’s arguments, in an article at
http://98.131.162.170/tynbul/library/TynBull_1988_39_05_Noble_GregoryNazianScripture.pdf
Also, Arthur James Mason presenting the Greek text, with commentary, in the 1899 book, “The Five Theological Orations of Gregory Nazianzus,” which can be downloaded at
http://archive.org/details/thefivetheologic00greguoft
.Mason’s helpful paragraph-summaries and comments on the pertinent part of Gregory’s oration can be found in the footnotes on pages 165-171; paragraph 19 is where Gregory employs First John 5:8; Mason sums up the paragraph like this:
“If you tell me that numbers denote things of one nature and those only, then I will deny that you can say ‘three men,’ unless each of the three is an exact repetition of the others. St. John was certainly not bound by your rule when he spoke of the three witnesses; nor will it hold when you come to speak of things of different natures but bearing the same name.”
more
https://purebibleforum.com/index.ph...vidences-on-bvdb-note-carthage.909/post-15500
This thread will include various elements related to Gregory Nazianzen.
And there is a sister thread that focuses on recent Net discussions:
Gregory Nazianzen - and James Snapp on the grammatical discordance on BVDB
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php/threads/a.781
We will start with the most well known reference.
Oration 31 - The Fifth Theological Oration. On the Holy Spirit, XIX
18. You say things of one essence are counted together, but those which are not consubstantial are reckoned one by one. Where did you get this from? From what teachers of dogma or mythology? Do you not know that every number expresses the quantity of what is included under it, and not the nature of the things? But I am so old-fashioned — or perhaps I should say so unlearned — as to use the word “three” of that number of things, even if they are of a different nature, and to use one and one and one in a different way of so many units, even if they are united in essence, looking not so much at the things themselves as at the quantity of the things in respect of which the emuneration is made. But since you hold so very close to the letter (although you are contending against the letter), pray take your demonstrations from this source. There are in the book of Proverbs three things which go well: a lion, a goat, and a cock; and to these is added a fourth: a king making a speech before the people, 22 to pass over the other sets of four which are there counted up, although things of various natures. And I find in Moses two cherubim counted singly.23 But now, in your technology, could either the former thin gs be called three, when they differ so greatly in their nature, or the latter be treated as units, when they are so closely connected and of one name? For if I were to speak of God and Mammon as two masters, 24 reckoned under one head, when they are so very different from each other, I should probably be still more laughed at for such a connumeration.
19. But to my mind, he says ,25 those things are said to be connumerated and of the same essence of which the names also correspond, as three men, or three gods, but not three this and that. What does this concession amount to? It is suitable to one laying down the law as to names, not to one who is asserting the truth. For I also will assert that Peter and James and John are not three or consubstantial, so long as I cannot say three Peters, or three Jameses, or three Johns; for what you have reserved for common names we demand also for proper names, in accordance with your arrangement; or else you will be unfair in not conceding to others what you assume for yourself.
What about John, then, when in his Catholic Epistle he says that there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood? 26 Do you think he is talking nonsense? First, because he has ventured to reckon under one numeral things which are not consubstantial, though you say this ought to be done only in the case of things which are consubstantial. For who would assert that these are consubstantial? Secondly, because he has not been consistent in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down.
For what is the difference between putting a masculine three first, and then adding one and one and one in the neuter, or after a masculine one and one and one to use the three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourself disclaim in the case of deity? What have you to say about the crab, which may mean either an animal or an instrument or a constellation? And what about the dog, now terrestrial, now aquatic, now celestial? Do you not see that three crabs or dogs are spoken of? Why, of course it is so. Well, then, are they therefore of one substance? None but a fool would say that. So you see how completely your argument from connumeration has broken down, and is refuted by all these instances. For if things that are of one substance are not always counted under one numeral, things not of one substance are thus counted, and the pronunciation of the name once for all is used in both cases, what advantage do you gain towards your doctrine?
22 Prov. 30:29.
23 Ex. 25:19; 37:8.
24 Matt. 6:24.
25 I.e., Gregory’s Macedonian opponent, elsewhere addressed in the second person.
26. I John 5:8
Likely the best source for this section:
Edward Rochie Hardy (1908-1981)
Christology of the Later Fathers (1954)
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.88945/page/n207/mode/2up
https://books.google.com/books?id=0PNnTTspIAcC&pg=PA205
Rochie discusses the 'Macedonian opponent' and gives footnotes in p. 202-207 that identifies references to:
Proverbs 30:29-31 (AV)
29 There be three things which go well, yea, four are comely in going:
30 A lion which is strongest among beasts, and turneth not away for any;
31 A greyhound; an he goat also; and a king, against whom there is no rising up.
Matthew 6:24 (AV)
No man can serve two masters:
for either he will hate the one, and love the other;
or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Exodus 25:19 (AV)
And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end:
even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
Exodus 37:8 (AV)
One cherub on the end on this side,
and another cherub on the other end on that side:
out of the mercy seat made he the cherubims on the two ends thereof.”
Roman s 11:26 (AV)
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
2 Corinthians 13:14 (AV)
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the communion of the Holy Ghost,
be with you all. Amen.
James Snapp pointed to specific commentary on BVDB
https://www.elpenor.org/gregory-nazianzen/fifth-theological.asp?pg=10
A few days ago you mentioned Gregory of Nazianzus’ statement in
“On the Holy Spirit”
(Theological Oration #5, a.k.a. Oration #31),
which was delivered against the Eunomians in 380.
The most readily available online translation, by Ch. Browne and J. Swallow, is at http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... logian.asp
. Its wording is occasionally opaque;
Tom A. Noble has taken a step to remedy this by explaining the basic flow of Gregory’s arguments, in an article at
http://98.131.162.170/tynbul/library/TynBull_1988_39_05_Noble_GregoryNazianScripture.pdf
Also, Arthur James Mason presenting the Greek text, with commentary, in the 1899 book, “The Five Theological Orations of Gregory Nazianzus,” which can be downloaded at
http://archive.org/details/thefivetheologic00greguoft
.Mason’s helpful paragraph-summaries and comments on the pertinent part of Gregory’s oration can be found in the footnotes on pages 165-171; paragraph 19 is where Gregory employs First John 5:8; Mason sums up the paragraph like this:
“If you tell me that numbers denote things of one nature and those only, then I will deny that you can say ‘three men,’ unless each of the three is an exact repetition of the others. St. John was certainly not bound by your rule when he spoke of the three witnesses; nor will it hold when you come to speak of things of different natures but bearing the same name.”
more
https://purebibleforum.com/index.ph...vidences-on-bvdb-note-carthage.909/post-15500
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