Homestead Heritage flip-flops and confusions and attacks on the heavenly witnesses verse

Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
1 John 5:7 (AV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.

Note that those who accept this beautiful verse will often be Jehovah defenders, knowing that Yahweh is Jupiter, a dark-side entity. They believe their King James Bible (some use NKJV and other Received Text editions.)

1970s and 1980s =- simply scripture, no attacks

2005-2015 - correspondence with Joel Stein, he actually accepted Acts 8:37 based on evidences, but stayed stubborn on heavenly witnesses, he cut off the correspondence when his position became too difficult. - Some of this is available.

2017 - EQUIVOCAL - My meeting with Asahel at the Cafe, we discuss their plans for a new Bible version!

https://www.purebibleforum.com/inde...iful-heavenly-witnesses-verse.1066/#post-4810

Homestead Heritage attacks the majestic and beautiful heavenly witnesses verse

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Joel Stein went fishing for some of the weirdest, ill-founded and most vitriolic attacks on this amazing verse, especially hanging his hat on the atheist Bart Ehrman...
www.purebibleforum.com
c.2018 - Attacks on verse in child Study Bible
Some Bible translations, such as the King James and New King James versions, include what has become known as the "Johannine comma” a short clause appearing in 1 John 5:7-8. While there has been much debate over the authenticity of this clause, it did not appear in any Greek manuscript until the fifteenth century. Although some believe it to have been omitted from earlier manuscripts as the result of a scribal error, the doctrinal significance of the clause has led many, including Sir Isaac Newton, 1 to suspect a deliberate forgery. Newton and others 2 believed that the issue of "the Trinity" was the underlying motive behind the late insertion. University of Leicester professor Gordon Campbell referred to the Johannine Comma as "a medieval forgery inserted into Bibles to support a trinitarian doctrine that had been erected on a disconcertingly thin biblical base." 3 New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman similarly spoke of the clause as "the most obvious instance of a theologically motivated corruption in the entire manuscript tradition of the New Testament.:" 4 In spite of the support that such a clause would lend to the orthodox doctrine of the trinity, the majority of scholars on both sides of the trinitarian debate concur that the Johannine comma is, at best, a textual aberration that should be excluded from the Biblical text.

c. 2020 - PRO - Questions Visitors Ask - the verse is used in economic Trinity apologetic
2021 - This is shown at the 29 minute mark of Chained Ambassador
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKtb94cEmdA
29 Minute Mark
https://youtu.be/RKtb94cEmdA?t=1740
Pic
1650202040136.png

60. Do you believe in the trinity?
— (B A) An economic trinity is said to be the belief that one Supreme Being has manifested Himself as Father in Creation, Son in Redemption and Holy Spirit in regeneration and that "these three are one" (1 John 5:7, KJV). As so stated, we accede to this as Biblical.
Pure Bible
This was a very interesting video, first I just want to say thanks! Agree with you on some points, less so on some others. One irony, in their trinity discussion, I saw in your pic, they used 1 John 5:7 "and these three are one", the heavenly witnesses verse, from the King James Bible. A beautiful and majestic verse. Yet they absolutely deny that the verse is scripture! I know this from their other writings, and from correspondence with Joel Stein where I tried to show him that the Authorized Version is pure and that the heavenly witnesses and Acts 8:37 are scripture! And a follow-up discussion with Asahel Adams. They use Isaac Newton and Gordon Campbell to attack the authenticity of the verse in internal literature. This type of hypocrisy about the Bible and their preferred versions, and their attempt to make their own version, is common for Homestead Heritage. They only affirm as true the non-identifiable "original autographs". They play around with a dozen corruption versions and pick and choose in smorgasbord style to match their thinking, not based on accuracy. In your picture, they used the decrepit Amplified Version to get the quote "In many separate revelations -- each of which set forth a portion of Truth ... " A total disaster! Here is the real scripture! Hebrews 1:1-3 (AV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; blessings and grace in Jesus, Steven (Avery) Spencer Dutchess County, NY USA

2022 - CONTRA vicious and ignorant attack by Asahel Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVdZY9Hi3YY

This is the starting point 52:20
https://youtu.be/vVdZY9Hi3YY?t=3140
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_lDgN-1Izs

My comment: (maybe take out the url to help it to stick)

Before going into the wonderful Heavenly Witnesses verse, 1 John 5:7, a quick note that Howard Wheeler was simply wrong in claiming that quote from Augustine about the Trinity, this is covered by a gentleman named Fred Sanders:

Who Said “The Trinity: Try to Understand It, and You’ll Lose Your Mind”?
https://scriptoriumdaily.com/who-said-the-trinity-try-to-understand-it-and-youll-lose-your-mind/

The quote was never from Augustine or any early church writer, it is quite recent.
 
Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
The heavenly witnesses verse is actually strongly supported by powerful evidences from 200 AD to Erasmus at 1500 AD (when Asahel ignorantly said it was created!). Cyprian at 250 AD has a direct usage, Jerome c. 400 AD in his Vulgate Prologue explained that the beautiful verse was often omitted by scribes, at the Council of Carthage of 484 AD about 400 orthodox affirmed the verse, clearer than the light!, the Greek work on Athanasius vs. an Arian at Nicea supports the verse, the raw, short Greek text missing the heavenly witnesses is a solecism, about 95% of the c. 1000 Latin mss. have the verse, and there is much, much more.

For Asahel to claim publicly that the verse was created in the 1500s shows an incredible ignorance. And to make it worse, this has all been carefully explained to their textual theoretician, Joel Stein. In fact, as an example of their hypocrisy and inconsistency, Joel used the verse in support of the economic Trinity in "Questions Visitors Ask".

From this position of great ignorance and confusion, on what can be seen as the most important verse in the Bible, Homestead Heritage has even made efforts for years to put out their own version!

All Christians should seek to come up to speed on the pure Bible, a good start is to accept the wisdom and grace behind the Authorized Version (KJB) text.

========================================

1 John 5:7-8 (AV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.

And there are three that bear witness in earth,
the spirit, and the water, and the blood:
and these three agree in one.

===============

These two share a beautiful parallelism! Verse 7 is the one that causes confusion in the minds of Homestead Heritage, for Joel Stein, Asahel Adams and Howard Wheeler. They use the verse as Bible, and yet they publicly attack the verse ignorantly.

The heavenly witnesses is about the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. Generally it is subject to interpretation as either Trinitarian or Oneness. One theory is that the verse dropped from the Greek line as too Sabellian, even in the 2nd and 3rd century. (The original drop may have been scribal, homoeoteleuton, the similar endings.)

The earthly witnesses are spirit, water and blood, and these three agree in one. This is often thought to refer to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, as in the following four verses, three of which

John 19:30 (AV)
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
he said, It is finished:
and he bowed his head,
and gave up the ghost.

John 19:34 (AV)
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side,
and forthwith came there out blood and water.

These last two verses covering the three component earthly witnesses and being written by John is a strong indication of interpretation strength.

Notice that the Johannine 1 theme of bearing record comes forth in the very next verse.

John 19:35 (AV)
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true:
and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

Luke 23:46 (AV)
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:
and having said thus,
he gave up the ghost.

Matthew 27:50
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

The idea that these two, heavenly and earthly, are really the same does not hold up to scrutiny. In fact the Holy Ghost or Spirit is only in the heavenly witnesses. The two verses are totally distinct in meaning!

============

Note also the Johannine style and vocabulary of the heavenly witnesses, referencing the Word!

John 1:1 (AV)
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

Also consider as likely from John.

Revelation 19:13 (AV)
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
 
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