Luke 23:34 - Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Steven Avery

Administrator
Resources to be tweaked
One goal is to put together a master list of ECW references, short and long versions (full quotes when possible.)

There is a lot of duplication with an earlier thread, the Parallelism element is important there, otherwise generally this is stronger.
sister thread to combine:
Luke 23:34 - Father, forgive them
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php/threads/a.464
BCHF Nov, 2018 thread to review
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4686&p=93733#p93733
Referenced in first 4 pages

Clement of Alexandria
Origen by Rufinus
Ignatius
Eusebius
Clement of Rome
( Tertullian Epiphanius complex 2nd)
Didascalia
Hippolytus
Archelaus Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes
Gospel of Nicodemus (The Acts of Pilate)
Pseudo-Justin -
History of the Passion of the Lord -
( Ephrem and Diatessaron )

========================

LaParola

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e-catena
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/luke23.html

========================

James Snapp in 2017 went through some of the early church writer references, working with the material from Wieland Willker:

Luke 23:34a-
Answering the Apologists
James Snapp Jr. Good Friday, 2017
https://www.academia.edu/32432708/LUKE_23_34a_ANSWERING_THE_APOLOGISTS

James was following up on our posts as you can see here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/21209666692/permalink/10152447788516693/?comment_id=10152451158946693&comment_tracking={"tn":"R"}

And that thread has additional information, including Daniel Wallace and "inauthentic literarily " to be added here.

James was utilizing information from Wieland Willker:

A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels - Vol 3 Luke
Wieland Willker

http://www.willker.de/wie/TCG/TC-Luke.pdf

=========================


Facebook and YouTube resources (This post, further down, has one of mine in full.)

Facebook - PureBible - Feb, 2016
From the Lips of Jesus or a Scribal Hand? "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/928654287226461/

Facebook - PureBible - Nov, 2015
Is Luke 23:34 another biblical CORRUPTION?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/892927497465807/

Facebook - PureBible - Dec 2017
A James White Christmas Carol on Father Forgive Them in Luke 23:34
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/1540386526053231/

YouTube - Jonathan Sheffield

Additional on King James Bible Debate and NT Textual Criticis on Facebook and other spots.
My 2014 study is on Facebook, Will Kinney's article is above, on the Facebook thread, although he likely has a regular spot:

Facebook - King James Bible Debate
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212...=10152448697101693&offset=0&total_comments=22
Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus,
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


============

Now, the evidence for this full verse, with the prayer, is absolutely overwhelming, only a person groping deep in the hortian fog can get as confused and rebellious against the pure word of God has James White. Burgon has a superb section on the verse, we will look for new material here.

Textual criticism of the New Testament (1897)
George Salmon
http://books.google.com/books?id=UEA1AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA25
In these and several other cases of omission, a student who examines the evidence for himself, without having mastered WH's principles of dealing with it, would be likely to think that a bad reading had been adopted in the teeth of evidence, overpowering both in respect of the number and the antiquity of the witnesses in favour of the reading which the Church for many centuries had received. Nay, it would seem as if in the judgment of the new editors any evidence was good enough to justify an omission.

The evidence is overpowering.

============

Even Ehrman accepts the verse, referring to the full verse:

"It appears, then, that Luke: 23:34 was part of Luke's original text." - Misquoting Jesus, p. 160

Also the SBLGNT, one of the textcrit endeavors:

1. [verified: SBLGNT includes "ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς ἔλεγεν · Πάτερ, ἄφες αὐτοῖς, οὐ γὰρ οἴδασιν τί ποιοῦσιν" in text, but it is actually enclosed with Unicode half-brackets indicating that a variant reading (in this case omission) has been noted in the SBL apparatus - Ben]


From the Nazaroo site, from James Snapp, 2010



============

The former different confused position of James White is here:

King James Only Controversy (2009)
http://books.google.com/books?id=q7H_2eQC91kC&pg=PA320

"profound theological implications ... What is highly significant here is the breadth of witnesses not containing this text. ... This witness at least should be kept in mind when placing theological weight upon this passage."

============

While the breadth of witnesses for inclusion is far broader, and omitting text is trivially easy, while adding text over various textlines and times and languages and regions is extremely difficult.

Ironically, White uses this verse as his springboard for criticizing "long-distance mind-reading" of the scribes. This would be a timely warning, except that it is something that James White himself does do, as James Snapp pointed out, on the Mark ending, see p. 320 for an example. Ironically, here White criticizes Ehrman, who has this verse right.

Remember, the hypocrite James White lauded Burgon's argumentation on 1 Timothy 3:16, yet the evidence here is that much more powerful from Burgon. Even many in the textual academy agree on this one, despite all the indoctrination.

============
.
The following was written by a scholar who was under Ehrman. A library trip will be necessary for the ... part.

Guardians of Letters: Literacy, Power, and the Transmitters of Early Christian Literature (2000)
Kim Haines-Eitzen
http://books.google.com/books?id=NjgtmT0prkUC&pg=PA120

"... Constitutions of the Holy Apostles (2.3.16; 5.3.14), Gospel of Nicodemus (10), and the Acts of Philip also cite this verse. Marcion's Luke and Tatian's Diatessaron include the prayer in Luke's Gospel. These witnesses demonstrate that the prayer was known in the second century in Gaul, Alexandria, Palestine, Syria, and Rome."

"the prayer was known in the second century in Gaul, Alexandria, Palestine, Syria, and Rome."

This is only explainable by ... authenticity.

============

Even the supposed Alexandrian Origen is often focused upon as yet another key early witness. He has two references (maybe more per the review by Peter R. Rodgers of the Haines-Eitzen material).

[textualcriticism] Luke 23:34a - Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do
Sept 8, 2010
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/textualcriticism/conversations/topics/5960
In that post, I highlight how the textual criticism mentality can lead to confusion.

Origen is in Peri Pascha, and:

Homily 2 on Leviticus
http://www.ldysinger.com/@texts/025...oekju4ZA4QW52Sjjl4ErVLZO-JagVjcZJA4wB9L9AVOYM
But it is said of the sin of the congregation, “if they are ignorant and the word concealed from their eyes and they do one thing of all the commands of the Lord which they ought not do,” (Cf. Lev 4.13) then it is also apparent that “the entire congregation” can sin through ignorance. The Lord also confirms this in the Gospels when he says, “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.”

Wieland has some here, with text, and some of these with multiple references. Take a look at these confirmed references, tons from the Ante-Nicene period.

A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels
Luke
http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/TC-Luke.pdf

Gospel of the Hebrews, Gospel of the Nazarenes, Diatessaron, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Marcion, Clement of Alexandria, Origen above and Peri Pascha, Hippolytus, Didascalia, Apostolic Constitutions, Eusebius, Pseudo-Basileus of Caesarea, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, Hilarius, Acts of Philip, Pseudo-Clement, Acta Archelai/Hegemonius, Chrysostom, Pseudo-Justin, Hesychius of Jerusalem, Jerome, Cyril of Alexandria, Philogathus and a number of solid allusions.

Let's lay it out:

Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazarenes
Diatessaron
Ignatius
Irenaeus
Marcion
Clement of Alexandria
Origen above and Peri Pascha
Hippolytus
Didascalia
Apostolic Constitutions
Eusebius
Pseudo-Basileus of Caesarea
Ambrose
Gregory of Nyssa
Hilarius
Acts of Philip
Pseudo-Clement
Acta Archelai/Hegemonius
Chrysostom
Pseudo-Justin
Hesychius of Jerusalem
Jerome
Cyril of Alexandria
Philogathus
and a number of solid allusions

"The problem is to come up with a good explanation for a secondary addition of the words." (As we often see, as with the Mark ending, there is no sensible addition theory, not over such a wide range of languages and lines.)

The evidences are massive everywhere, mss and ECW. When there are a plethora of early witnesses, a few mss with an omission mean nothing, and they are, even if 3rd (P75) or 4th century, simply far too late to have any weight. Internal evidences are very fluid, reasons for omission are easy to conjecture, so that gets a lot of the modern ink. However, mind-reading the scribes is really not even necessary to understand the authenticity.

Another resource mentioned by Wieland is:

"A Disconcerting Prayer: On the Originality of Luke 23:34a" by Nathan Eubank
JBL 129, no. 3 (2010): 521-536
https://www.academia.edu/2190430/_A...urnal_of_Biblical_Literature_129_2010_521-536
https://www.questia.com/library/jou...sconcerting-prayer-on-the-originality-of-luke

"In this essay I shall review the external evidence, arguing that proponents of the shorter reading have exaggerated their case. Then, after examining the formidable intrinsic evidence in favor of the longer reading, I shall turn to neglected transcriptional evidence that shows that Luke 23:34a was a problem passage in early Christianity."

The article is available from the author on request in 2010, not sure now.

Wieland is another textual criticism aficionado de facto agreeing that this is an omission corruption, shared by P75 and Vaticanus.

[textualcriticism] New article on Luke 23:34a
Wieland Willker - Sept, 2010
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/textualcriticism/conversations/topics/5959

"Overall Lk 23:34 together with Lk 22:43-44 are two of the most important variants in the Gospels, perhaps THE two most important. If we accept these words to be genuine, which I am inclined to do (still with a big question mark, of course), then we must accept that P75/B suffered from some strange, selective, but serious recensional activity."

The fact that Wieland, knowing the evidences as above, stays a tad equivocal in favoring authenticity shows you how deep are the hortian deceptions.

One next step that would be helpful is to increase Will Kinney's already large number of ECW references .

My summary: easily a textbook case of the textual absurdity behind the modern versions, who follow the NA-UBS Critical Text in omitting the verses (or including them, often in the margin, and claiming they are not authentic.) Similar to the Mark ending in significance and overwhelming evidentiary support for the pure Bible.


Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.


Steven Avery
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
e-catena

e-catena to be checked
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/luke23.html


Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
but prayed for His enemies, "Father, forgive them; they know not what they do."[82]

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III
And from this fact, that He exclaimed upon the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," [348]

Archelaus Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes
and here, our Lord Jesus prayed that the Pharisees might be pardoned, when He said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."[531]

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II
For our Saviour Himself entreated His Father for those who had sinned, as it is written in the Gospel: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what the

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book V
And a little afterward, when He had cried with a loud voice, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,"[114]

Recognitions of Clement VI
Wherefore, in short, the Master Himself, when He was being led to the cross by those who knew Him not, prayed the Father for His murderers, and saic forgive their sin, for they know not what they do!'[7]

Clementine Homily XI
, prayed to the Father that the sin of those who slew Him might be forgiven, saying, ’Father, forgive them their sins, for they know not what they do.'[8]

Gospel of Nicodemus I The Acts of Pilate
Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Father, let not this sin stand against them; for they know not what they do.[106]

Of the Journeyings of Philip the Apostle
, was made to drink gall and vinegar, and said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.[14]
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Wieland

Wieland Willker (used by James Snapp)
http://www.willker.de/wie/TCG/TC-Luke.pdf


Gospel of the Nazarenes (2nd CE): for the Latin texts see 5QE to the passage
• "As it is said in the Gospel of the Nazarenes: Due to this word [Lk 23:34a], Thousands of Jews who were standing around the cross became believers." (found in Haimo (of Auxerre, 9th CE) Halberstatensis, Comm, in Isa 53.12)


• "Note that in the Gospel of the Nazarenes one can read that due to this word, 8000 have been converted later, namely 3000 on Pentecost (Acts 2) and later 5000 (Acts 4)." (found in Historia passionis Domini f. 55r, also quoted in Chronicon Salernitanum, see Flusser)
Gospel of the Hebrews (2nd CE, possibly, quoted by Jerome in epistle 120, 8, 9): But so much loved the Lord Jerusalem, that he wept and lamented over the city and, hanging on the cross, he said: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And he achieved what he begged for, and immediately many thousands of Jews believed, and up to the 42nd year they had time to repent, (see SQE for the Latin).
Wieland continues with over 25 writers, some with multiple citations, especially Chrysostom.

James Snapp has over 20, with his own commentary, with this interesting note:

The only writer who challenges the sentence’s right to be in the text is Cyril of Alexandria (c. 425) - hardly surprising considering his location - as reported by the writer Oecumenius, around the year 600, in Asia Minor, in his commentary on Revelation. In the course of commenting on the first part of Revelation 7, Oecumenius cites Luke 23:34a and mentions that “Although Cyril, in the thirteenth book of Against Julian, says that this prayer of the Lord is not found in the Gospels, we use it nevertheless.”

================

Original list in Wieland Willker (allusions will be listed separately)

Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazarenes
Diatessaron
Ignatius (this might be the Ps-Ignatius of LaParola apparatus)
Irenaeus (lat according to LaParola)
Marcion
Clement of Alexandria
Origen above and Peri Pascha
Hippolytus
Didascalia
Apostolic Constitutions
Eusebius
Pseudo-Basileus of Caesarea (this might be Basil of apparatus)
Ambrose
Gregory of Nyssa
Hilarius
Acts of Philip
Pseudo-Clement
Acta Archelai/Hegemonius
Chrysostom
Pseudo-Justin
Hesychius of Jerusalem
Jerome
Cyril of Alexandria
Philogathus
and a number of solid allusions


==================================================

In LaParola apparatus and maybe not in Wieland Willker (check allusions)

Jacobus-Justus according to Hegesippus
Ps-Clementines
Ambrosiaster
Amphilochius
Didymus-dub
Eusebian canons
Augustine
Theodoret
John-Damascus

 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
John William Burgon - Revision Revised

Revision Revised (1883)
John William Burgon
https://books.google.com/books?id=nXkw1TAatV8C&pg=PA82
[url]http://www.keithhunt.com/Mutilations.html
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/burgon/revision_revised.v.html[/URL]

(4) Next in importance after the preceding, comes the Prayer which the Saviour of the World breathed from the Cross on behalf of His murderers (S. Luke xxiii. 34). These twelve precious words,—(‘ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,’)—like those twenty-six words in S. Luke xxii. 43, 44 which we have been considering already, Drs. Westcott and Hort enclose within double brackets in token of the ‘ moral certainty’ they entertain that the words are spurious.1 And yet these words are found in every known uncial and in every known cursive Copy, except four; besides being found in every ancient Version. And what,—(we ask the question with sincere simplicity,)— what amount of evidence is calculated to inspire undoubting confidence in any existing Reading, if not such a concurrence of Authorities as this ?. . . We forbear to insist upon the probabilities of the case. The Divine power and sweetness of the incident shall not be enlarged upon. We introduce no considerations resulting from Internal Evidence. True, that “few verses of the Gospels bear in themselves a surer witness to the Truth of what they record, than this.” (It is the admission of the very man 2 who has nevertheless dared to brand it with suspicion.) But we reject his loathsome patronage with indignation. “Internal Evidence,”—“Transcriptional Probability,”—and all such 'chaff and draff,’ with which he fills his pages ad nauseam, and mystifies nobody but himself, —shall be allowed no place in the present discussion. Let this verse of Scripture stand or fall as it meets with sufficient external testimony, or is forsaken thereby. How then about the Patristic evidence,—for this is all that remains unexplored?

Only a fraction of it was known to Tischendorf. We find our Saviour’s Prayer attested,—


(List taken with the Keith Hunt formatting, needs review, also good is CCEL, both in the urls above.)


In the 2nd century by Hegesippus,1—and by Irenseus:2—
In the 3rd, by Hippolytus,3—by Origen,4—by the
Apostolic Constitutions5—by the Clementine Homilies6—by
ps.-Tatian,7—and by the disputation of Archelaus with
Manes:8—
In the 4th, by Eusebius,9—by Athanasius,10—
by Gregory Nyss.,11—by Theodoras Herac.,12—by Basil,13—
by Chryso-stom,14—by Ephraem Syr.,15—by ps.-Ephraim,16—
by ps.-Dionysius Areop.,17—by the Apocryphal Acta Pilati,18—
by the Acta Philippi,19—and by the Syriac Acts of the App.20 —
by ps.-Ignatius,21—and ps.-Justin :22—
In the 5th, by Theodoret,23—by Cyril,24—by Eutherius :25
In the 6th, by Anastasius Sin.,26—by Hesychius :27—
In the 7th, by Antiochus mon.,28—by Maximus,29—
by Andreas Cret.:30—
1 Ap. Eus. Hist. Bed. ii. 23.
2 P. 521 and ... [Mass. 210 and 277.]
3 Ed. Lagarde, p. 65 line 3.
4 ii. 188. Hser. iii. 18 p. 5.
5 Ap. Gall. iii. 38,127.
6 Ibid. ii. 714. (Horn. xi. 20.)
7 Evan. Cone. 275.
8 Ap. Routh, v. 161.
9 He places the verses in Can. x.
10 i. 1120.
11 iii. 289.
12 Cat. in Ps. iii. 219.
13 i. 290.
14 15 times.
15 ii. 48, 321, 428; ii. (syr.) 233.
16 Evan. Cone. 117, 256.
17 i. 607.
18 Pp. 232, 286.
19 P. 85.
20 Pp. 11,16. Dr. Wright assigns them to the 4th century.
21 Eph. c. x.
22 ii. 166,168, 226.
23 6 times.
24 Ap. Mai, ii. 197 ( = Cramer 52); iii. 392.—Dr. Hort's strenuous pleading for the authority of Cyril on this occasion (who however is plainly against him) is amusing. So is his claim to have the cursive "82" on his side. He is certainly reduced to terrible straits throughout his ingenious volume. Yet are we scarcely prepared to find an upright and honourable man contending so hotly, and almost on any pretext, for the support of those very Fathers which, when they are against him, (as, 99 times out of 100, they are,) he treats with utter contumely. He is observed to put up with any ally, however insignificant, who even seems to be on his side.
25 Ap. Theod. v. 1152.
26 Pp. 423, 457.
27 Cat. in Ps. i. 768; ii. 663.
28 Pp. 1109,1134.
29 i. 374.
30 P. 93.
……
In the 8th, by John Damascene,1—besides ps.-Chrysostom,2—ps. Amphilochius,3—and the Opus imperf4.
Add to this, (since Latin authorities have been brought to the front),—Ambrose,5—Hilary,6—Jerome,7—Augustine,8— and other earlier writers 9.

We have thus again enumerated upwards of forty ancient Fathers. And again we ask, With what show of reason is the brand set upon these 12 words? Gravely to cite, as if there were anything in it, such counter-evidence as the following, to the foregoing torrent of Testimony from every part of ancient Christendom:—viz: ‘ B D, 38, 435, a b d and one Egyptian version ’—might really have been mistaken for a mauvaise plaisanterie, were it not that the gravity of the occasion effectually precludes the supposition. How could our Revisionists dare to insinuate doubts into wavering hearts and unlearned heads, where (as here) they were bound to know, there exists no manner of doubt at all ?

1 The Editors shall speak for themselves concerning this, the first of tho * Seven last Words —‘ We cannot doubt that it comes from an extraneous source ?—‘ need not have belonged originally to the book in which it is now included:'—is ‘a Western interpolation.'

Dr. Hort,—unconscious apparently that he is at the bar, not on the bench, —passes sentence (in his usual imperial style)—“Text, Western and Syrian” (p. 67).—But then, (1st) It happens that our Lord’s intercession on behalf of His murderers is attested by upwards of forty Patristic witnesses from every part of ancient Christendom: while, (2ndly) On the contrary, the places in which it is not found are certain copies of the old Latin, and codex D, which is supposed to be our great ‘ Western ’ witness.

2 Dr. Hurt’s N. T. vol. ii. Note, p. 08.

 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
parallelism

Parallelism Post

Luke 23:34 - parallelism of Jesus and Stephen accounts

An additional note. The internal evidences also are clearly strongly in favor of the inclusion of Luke 23:34, as an auxiliary to the massive ECW and manuscript evidences.

(Noting also the extreme ultra-paucity of omission evidences in every realm.)

==================================


Perfect Martyr: The Stoning of Stephen and the Construction of Christian Identity (2010)
Shelly Matthew

http://books.google.com/books?id=RAw0oLs5os0C&pg=PA101

Internal considerations also point in the direction of Lukan originality. As many have noted, a close interlocking structure knits the death of Stephen to the death of Jesus across the two volumes 8. Before his death, the persecuted Stephen speaks three times in front of the murderous mob. In the two instances in which the manuscript tradition is secure, his words are modeled closely, though not precisely, on the words of the persecuted Jesus. Compare Jesus before the council in Luke 22.69, "But from now on tne Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God," with Stephen before the mob in Acts 7.56, "Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"; and Luke 23.46, "Father into your hands I commend my spirit," with Acts 7.59. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Those who argue against Lukan originality and for later scribal interpolation of 23.34a must presume the unlikely scenario by which the author of Luke-Acts modeled two of Stephen's dying utterances on words of Jesus, then scripted for Stephen a third saying, an original forgiveness prayer, that was later modified and retrojected into the Gospel of Luke.9 The careful parallels in the first two instances of Stephen's speech suggest, to the contrary, that this third and final utterance concerning forgiveness in Acts 7.60 is not a detail Luke introduces here for the first time but that once again he draws from a model saying in the Third Gospel, that is, an original prayer for forgiveness attributed to Jesus in Luke 23.34a. (continues)
===

Luke 22:69
Hereafter shall the Son of man
sit on the right hand of the power of God.

Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened,
and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


===

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:
and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God,
and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


===

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them;
for they know not what they do.
And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Acts 7:60
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice,
Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.
And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


==================================

The Nathan Eubank paper also points out that:


“A Disconcerting Prayer: On the Originality of Luke 23:34a (2010)
Nathan Eubank

http://www.nathaneubank.com/.../A-Disconcerting-Prayer.pdf

Finally, the style and vocabulary of Luke 23:34a are distinctively Lukan....

In sum: the intrinsic evidence offers strong—some would say decisive—reason for supposing that Luke 23:34a was composed by the same person who wrote Luke-Acts. The strength of this evidence is thrown into sharper relief if one considers the alternative: a scribe who assiduously imitated the theology and style of Luke-Acts, who copied the death of Stephen without using any of Stephen's words, and who inserted this prayer only into the Gospel of Luke, but never into the other Gospels.
=========

James might want to
1f642.png
:) at the turnabout reference (footnote #22) when referencing Adolf Harnack (1851-1930) support, typical lose-lose argumentation from the contras.

==================================

More on the Lukan parallels and internal and consistency and style and doctrinal emphasis here:

Guardians of Letters : Literacy, Power, and the Transmitters of Early Christian Literature (2000)
Kim Haines-Eitzen

http://books.google.com/books?id=NjgtmT0prkUC&pg=PA120

Also note how:

"and made intercession for the transgressors."

Isaiah 53:12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


Fits perfectly with Luke's use of Isaiah 53:12.

==================================

Steven Avery
 
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admin

Administrator
Staff member
===============

The ECW on Luke 23:34 is an amazing issue. It is a joke and a shame and an insult to the word of God that men like James White embarrass themselves and the Christian faith by attacking the Bible, on powerful Bible verses, and in front of unbelievers like the islamists, no less.

Earlier I gave a list of ECW from Wieland Willker. Those are all confirmed, with quotes (not always translated) although in some cases there were multiple references. The allusions should be listed as well. These can be compared with Burgon and others in an effort to develop a full presentation that will show clearly the powerful use and acceptance of the pure Bible over the hundreds of years, and all the manuscript traditions.

(Also this contrasts with the scorn of the enemies of the Bible against the historic manuscripts and church writers, the hortian dupes)

Next I am taking an apparatus listing in order to increase the data pool. I'm getting down what I have which can be tweaked later.

===============
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
This is a test to see if we are taking HTML as on the BCHF thread, a wonderful chart from David Hindley:
http://earlywritings.com/forum/view...sid=e13ad9027c4b1bdccd6b852f3b79a7c1&start=40

Jose,
Hopefully this table will help put things together.



ANF volume
page
Author
Title
Where
Language
What is said:
RSVn/aAnonymousActs of the Apostles7:60GreekAnd he [Stephen the Hellenist, as he was being stoned after being cast down from the temple wall] knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
i54IgnatiusEphesians (long Greek form)10GreekAnd let us imitate the Lord, “who, when He was reviled, reviled not again;”[1 Pet 2:23] when He was crucified, He answered not; “when He suffered, He threatened not;”[ditto] but prayed for His enemies, “Father, forgive them; they know not what they do.”
viii763HegesippusNote BooksBk 5GreekSo they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other: Let us stone James the just. And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said: I entreat you, Lord God our father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. [Eusebius, History of the Church 2.23.16]
i447IrenaeusAgainst Heresies3.18.5Latin translation, Greek lostAnd from this fact, that He exclaimed upon the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,”
Origen AdamantusHomilies on Leviticus2.1.5Latin translation, Greek lostThe Lord also confirms this in the Gospels when he says, “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.”
Origen AdamantusTreatise on the Passover (Peri Pascha)43.30-34Greek preservedFor the sacrifice of this one they made through their ignorance, because they did not know what they were doing—and for this reason it is also forgiven to them — for it is good for one man to die on behalf of all of the people.
v219-220Hippolytus of RomeTreatise Against the Jewssect 3GreekWherefore “they that sit in the gate spoke against me,” for they crucified me without the gate. “And they that drink sang against me,” [both quotes are from Psalm 69] that is, (they who drink wine) at the feast of the passover. “But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them,” [Luk 23:34] namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles.
vi220ArchelausDisputation with Manes44Latin translation, some Greek fragments, probably composed in Syriacand here, our Lord Jesus prayed that the Pharisees might be pardoned, when He said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
vii402AnonymousConstitutions of the Holy Apostles2.3.16GreekFor our Saviour Himself entreated His Father for those who had sinned, as it is written in the Gospel: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
vii445AnonymousConstitutions of the Holy Apostles5.3.14Greekwho also cried out about the ninth hour, and said to His Father: “My God! my God! why hast Thou forsaken me?” [Mat 27:46] And a little afterward, when He had cried with a loud voice, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” and had added, “Into Thy hands I commit my spirit,” He gave up the ghost [Luk 23:46]
viii154AnonymousRecognitions of Clement6.5.5Latin translation, Greek originalWherefore, in short, the Master Himself, when He was being led to the cross by those who knew Him not, prayed the Father for His murderers, and said, ‘Father, forgive their sin, for they know not what they do!’
viii242AnonymousClementine Homilies3.29.19Latin translation, Greek originalAnd yet He loved even those who hated Him, and wept over the unbelieving, and blessed those who slandered Him, and prayed for those who were in enmity against Him. [Mat 23:37; Luke 13:34, 23:34]
viii289AnonymousClementine Homilies11.25.20Latin translation, Greek originalFor the Teacher Himself, being nailed to the cross, prayed to the Father that the sin of those who slew Him might be forgiven, saying, ‘Father, forgive them their sins, for they know not what they do.’
viii430AnonymousGospel of Nicodemus2nd Greek Form, ch 10GreekThen Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Father, let not this sin stand against them; for they know not what they do.
viii439AnonymousGospel of Nicodemus, Acts of Pilate (Latin)ch 10LatinAnd Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And the soldiers parted His garments among them.
viii500AnonymousActs of PhilipOf the Journyings ofGreek?Our Master was beaten, was scourged, was extended on the cross, was made to drink gall and vinegar, and said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
 
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Steven Avery

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LJ Thriepland
https://www.followintruth.com/is-luke-2334-scripture-james-white-says-no


Here is a list of some quotations of and references to the prayer, although this list is thorough and contains many early and varied examples, it should not be considered full and concise.

??? Clement of Rome (died in 99AD) is accredited as having quoted the prayer:

For the Teacher Himself, being nailed to the cross, prayed to the Father that the sin of those who slew Him might be forgiven, saying, ‘Father, forgive them their sins, for they know not what they do.’ They also therefore, being imitators of the Teacher in their sufferings, pray for those who contrive them, as they have been taught.
Clementine Homily 11

It must be noted that this work is considered likely to be spurious.

Ignatius who wrote in the very early 2nd Century

“For say ye to those that hate you, Ye are our brethren, that the name of the Lord may be glorified. And let us imitate the Lord, “who, when He was reviled, reviled not again ; ” when He was crucified, He answered not; “when He suffered, He threatened not ; “but prayed for His enemies, “Father, forgive them; they know not what they do.” If any one, the more he is injured, displays the more patience, blessed is he. If any one is defrauded, if any one is despised, for the name of the Lord, he truly is the servant of Christ. Take heed that no plant of the devil be found among you, for such a plant is bitter and salt. “Watch ye, and be ye sober,” in Christ Jesus.”

Epistle to the Ephesians (longer version) Again it must be notated here that many do not accept that the longer versions of Ignatius writings were penned by him, but rather by a later unknown writer.

The words are included in Tatian’s Diatessaron (170AD approximately)

“7 And Jesus said, My Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and said, My Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. He said that, and bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.”
Diatessaron Section LII


In the book of Acts we find an allusion to the prayer of Jesus on the cross when Stephen also prayed for those that were going to kill him, just before he was stoned to death.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. KJV

We also find other followers of Jesus also praying for the forgiveness of those that were going to kill them.
Hegesippus around 170 AD referenced the prayer of James which utilised the words of Jesus, as attested to by Eusebius

“16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, ‘Let us stone James the Just.’ And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, ‘I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do

(17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, ‘Stop. What are you doing? The just one prays for you.’
  1. And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.
  2. These things are related at length by Hegesippus, who is in agreement with Clement. James was so admirable a man and so celebrated among all for his justice, that the more sensible even of the Jews were of the opinion that this was the cause of the siege of Jerusalem, which happened to them immediately after his martyrdom for no other reason than their daring act against him.)
    Eusebius Ecclesiastical History book II Chapter 23


    The prayer of James that utilises the same words as Jesus is also recounted by Epiphanius around 375 AD
This James, the Lords brother and Josephs son, died in Jerusalem, after living for about twenty-four years after the assumption of the Saviour. For at the age of Ninty-six he was struck on the head with a fuller’s rod, was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and fell without injury, but knelt in prayer for those who had thrown him down and said, “forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
Epiphanius Panarion 77, Antidicomanians 14:5

So it is very possible, just as Jesus had prayed for the forgiveness of those who killed him, those who followed him also did the same.

Bart Ehrman comments on this in his book Misquoting Jesus
Also striking in conjunction with this point is that Luke, the author himself, on a number of occasions goes out of his way to show the
similarities between what happened to Jesus in the Gospel and what
happened to his followers in Acts: both Jesus and his followers are
baptized, they both receive the Spirit at that point, they both proclaim
the good news, they both come to be rejected for it, they both suffer at
the hands of the Jewish leadership, and so on. What happens to Jesus
in the Gospel happens to his followers in Acts. And so it would be no
surprise—but rather expected—that one of Jesus’s followers, who
like him is executed by angry authorities, should also pray that God
forgive his executioners. There are other reasons for suspecting that Jesus’s prayer of for giveness is original to Luke 23. Throughout both Luke and Acts, for
example, it is emphasized that even though Jesus was innocent (as
were his followers), those who acted against him did so in ignorance. As Peter says in Acts 3: “I know that you acted in ignorance” (v. 17); or
as Paul says in Acts 17: “God has overlooked the times of ignorance”
(v. 27). And that is precisely the note struck in Jesus’s prayer: “for they
don’t know what they are doing.”

Bart Ehrman Misquoting Jesus page 192

Irenaeus around 180 AD twice cites the words:

“and when He underwent tyranny, He prayed His Father that He would forgive those who had crucified Him.”
Against Heresies book 3 chapter 16

“For, when inquisition shall be made for their blood, and they shall attain to glory, then all shall be confounded by Christ, who have cast a slur upon their martyrdom. And from this fact, that He exclaimed upon the cross, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do, “
Against Heresies book 3 chapter 18

Hypolytus around 200AD references the prayer of Jesus specifically noting that it was Gentiles that were being prayed for

“. Wherefore they that sit in the gate spoke against me, for they crucified me without the gate. And they that drink sang against me, that is, (they who drink wine) at the feast of the passover. But as for me, in my prayer unto You, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them, namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles.”

Expository Treatise Against the Jews :3

The Syriac Didascalia around 250 includes the prayer of Jesus.

“Our Savior made supplication to His Father for those who had sinned, as it is written in the Gospel, ‘My Father, they know not what they do, nor what they speak; yet if it be possible, forgive them.”
The Syriac Didascalia

Somewhere around the late 200’s Archelaus compares the prayer of Jesus to a prayer of Moses.

“There, before the sight of Moses, all the first-born of the Egyptians perished on account of the treachery of Pharaoh; and here, at the time of the birth of Jesus, every male among the Jews suddenly perished by reason of the treachery of Herod. There, Moses prayed that Pharaoh and his people might be spared the plagues; and here, our Lord Jesus prayed that the Pharisees might be pardoned, when He said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. “

Acts of the Disputation with Manes (44)



Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 330) included the passage in his canon-tables, in Canon Ten.

The prayer of Jesus is cited twice in the Apostolic Constitutions around 370 AD

“When you see the offender, with severity command him to be cast out; and as he is going out, let the deacons also treat him with severity, and then let them go and seek for him, and detain him out of the Church; and when they come in, let them entreat you for him. For our Saviour Himself entreated His Father for those who had sinned, as it is written in the Gospel: Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
Apostolic Constitutions Book II section 2:16

“He then presently granted him the forgiveness of his former sins, and brought him into paradise to enjoy the mystical good things; who also cried out about the ninth hour, and said to His Father: My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me? And a little afterward, when He had cried with a loud voice, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do, and had added, Into Your hands I commit my spirit, He gave up the ghost, and was buried before sunset in a new sepulchre.”
Apostolic Constitutions Book V Section 3:14

Ambrose writing around 380 AD to a monk named Olympios cited the words of the prayer:
Another color is patience: How is it manifested in the image of the invisible God?: swords and cudgels, chains and whips, blows [J.197] on the cheeks, face spat upon, a wounded shoulder, a wicked judgment, harsh decree, soldiers enjoying their hostile remarks with mockery, sarcasm and blows from a reed; they offer him nails, gall, vinegar and unimaginable horror, especially in exchange for his innumerable benefits. What defense do we have? “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing”
Ambrose On Perfection

Ambrose also made reference to the prayer in his writing the Prayer of Job and David

“Indeed, had they known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of majesty and would never still be pursuing their Jewish follies. They, then, are the ones who know not. For this reason also the Lord Jesus says in the Gospel, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Ambrose the prayer of Job an David

Hilary of Poitiers writing around 360AD referenced the prayer of Jesus 3 times in his writings on the trinity (a 12 book work)

“There is the widest difference between My soul is sorrowful even unto death Matthew 26:38, and Henceforth you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power Matthew 26:64; so also between Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away, from Me , and The cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it John 18:11 ? and further between My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me Matthew 27:46 ? and Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with Me in Paradise Luke 23:43, and between Father, into Your hands I commend My Spirit , and Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do ; and their narrow minds, unable to grasp the Divine meaning, plunge into blasphemy in the attempt at explanation.”

Hilary of Poitiers on the Trinity book 3 (32)


Here Hilary refers to the prayer, although he does not directly quote the words of the prayer.

“If His passion was a necessity of nature and not the free gift of your salvation: if the cross was merely the suffering of wounds, and not the fixing upon Himself of the decree of death made out against you: if His dying was a violence done by death, and not the stripping off of the flesh by the power of God: lastly, if His death itself was anything but a dishonouring of powers, an act of boldness, a triumph: then ascribe to Him infirmity, because He was therein subject to necessity and nature, to force, to fear and disgrace. But if it is the exact opposite in the mystery of the Passion, as it was preached to us, who, pray, can be so senseless as to repudiate the faith taught by the Apostles, to reverse all feelings of religion, to distort into the dishonourable charge of natural weakness, what was an act of free-will, a mystery, a display of power and boldness, a triumph? And what a triumph it was, when He offered Himself to those who sought to crucify Him, and they could not endure His presence: when He stood under sentence of death, Who shortly was to sit on the right hand of power: when He prayed for His persecutors while the nails were driven through Him”

Hilary of Poitiers on the Trinity book 10 (48)

“The answer of the Glorifier is granted not to the prayer for glory, but to the ignorance of the bystanders: must we not then regard the complaint of suffering, when He found His greatest joy in suffering, as intended for the building up of our faith? Christ prayed for His persecutors, because they knew not what they did.”
Hilary of Poitiers on the Trinity book 10 (71)

John Chrysostom refers to the prayer numerous times in his writings (I shall give 3 examples here)

“He commanded men to pray for their enemies: this also again He teaches by means of His acts: for when He had ascended the cross He said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. As therefore He commanded men to pray so does He Himself pray, instructing you to do so by his own unflagging utterances of prayer.”

John Chrysostom, Against Marcionists and Manichæans (4)

“Did he therefore cast them away? No, in no wise, but when He heard these sayings, He even yet more signally bestowed His benefits upon them, and went straightway to them that were about to crucify Him, to the intent that He might but only save them. And after He was crucified, what were His words? Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. “
John Chrysostom Homily 7 on Ephesians

“For indeed He cast them to the ground, and restored the servant’s ear, and discoursed with forbearance; and great miracles did He show forth, when lifted up, turning aside the sunbeams, bursting the rocks, raising the dead, frightening by dreams the wife of him that was judging Him, at the very judgment showing forth all meekness (which was of power not less than miracles to gain them over), forewarning them of countless things in the judgment hall; on the very cross crying aloud, Father, forgive them their sin.”
John Chrysostom Homily 79 on Matthew


Jerome, as already stated included the prayer in the latin Vulgate, however, he also cites the prayer in another writing:

“Moreover, to return to the literal meaning of this passage, we must not be surprised that after the death of the Savior, Jerusalem is called “the holy city,” since, until its complete collapse, the apostles are shown to have had no apprehension about entering the temple, and even observe the ceremonies of the law for fear of scandalizing those of Jews who had embraced the faith of Jesus Christ. We even see that the Savior loved this city so much that the misfortunes which threatened it elicited tears from His eyes; when He was crucified, He said to His Father, “Forgive them, Father, because they do know what they do.” His prayer was answered, for shortly after His death the Jews believed in Him by thousands, and God gave to this unfortunate city forty-two years to do penance. But finally its citizens, having failed to benefit, and still persisting in their wickedness — Vespasian and Titus together formed an anti-type of what is mentioned in our Scriptures, when they came out of the woods and killed and mauled these “children,” because of their blasphemous insults to the real Elisha when ascending to the house of God (for that is what “Bethel” means in Hebrew)”

Jerome To Hedibia Question #8



Augustine who wrote in the early 5th Century made reference to the prayer.

“Let them be turned backward and put to shame that wish me evil. Turned backwards. Let us not take this in a bad sense. He wishes them well; and it is His voice, who said from the Cross, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. “

Augustine Exposition on Psalm 40 (24)

  1. Look at the Lord himself, who did precisely what he commanded. After so many things the godless Jews committed against him, repaying him evil for good, didn’t he say, as he hung on the cross, Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they are doing
Augustine Sermon 382


There are also a number of non Christian (Gnostic) writings that attest to the prayer of Jesus.


“And Philip said to John: Behold now, where is my Lord Jesus, who told me not to
avenge myself? But for my part, I shall not endure it longer; but I will accomplish upon
them my threat, and will destroy them all.
And John and Bartholomew and Mariamme restrained him, saying: Our Master was beaten, was scourged, was extended on the cross, was made to drink gall and vinegar, and said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And this He taught, saying: Learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart.”

Acts of Philip 4th century

4th Century Gospel of Nicodemus
“And when Jesus was scourged, he delivered Him to the Jews to be crucified, and two robbers with Him; one by name Dismas, and the other by name Gestas. And when they came to the place, they stripped Him of His garments, and girt Him about with a linen cloth, and put a crown of thorns upon His head. Likewise also they hanged the two robbers with Him, Dismas on the right and Gestas on the left. And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And the soldiers parted His garments among them.”
Gospel of Nicodemus I – The Acts of Pilate chapter 10

The authenticity of the words of the prayer of Jesus have both ancient and varied manuscript evidence that is supported by a huge array of early and varied writers that attest to their originality and authority.

Surprisingly I am going to leave the final words to Bart Ehrman who offers us a possible reason as to WHY the words of the prayer of Jesus might have been removed………
Why, though, would a scribe (or a number of scribes) have wanted to
delete it? Here is where understanding something about the historical
context within which scribes were working becomes crucial. Readers
today may wonder for whom Jesus is praying. Is it for the Romans
who are executing him in ignorance? Or is it for the Jews who are responsible for turning him over to the Romans in the first place? How ever we might answer that question in trying to interpret the passage
today, it is clear how it was interpreted in the early church. In almost
every instance in which the prayer is discussed in the writings of the
church fathers, it is clear that they interpreted the prayer as being uttered not on behalf of the Romans but on behalf of the Jews. Jesus
was asking God to forgive the Jewish people (or the Jewish leaders)
who were responsible for his death. Now it becomes clear why some scribes would have wanted to omit the verse. Jesus prayed for the forgiveness of the Jews? How could that
be? For early Christians there were, in fact, two problems with the
verse, taken in this way. First, they reasoned, why would Jesus pray
for forgiveness for this recalcitrant people who had willfully rejected
God himself? That was scarcely conceivable to many Christians. Even
more telling, by the second century many Christians were convinced
that God had not forgiven the Jews because, as mentioned earlier, they
believed that he had allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed as a punishment for the Jews in killing Jesus. As the church father Origen said:
“It was right that the city in which Jesus underwent such sufferings
should be completely destroyed, and that the Jewish nation be overthrown” (Against Celsus 4, 22).11
The Jews knew full well what they were doing, and God obviously had not forgiven them. From this point of view, it made little sense for Jesus to ask for forgiveness for them, when no forgiveness was forthcoming. What were scribes to do with this text, then, in which Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing”? They dealt with the problem simply by excising the text, so that Jesus no longer asked that they be forgiven.

Bart Ehrman Misquoting Jesus pages 192-193
 
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