Psalm 12 - AV1611 historical references

[Steven Avery]

Rashi on Psalm 12:7 - Midrash on Psalms

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Hi Folks,

Now having discussed Rashi's mostly strength and some weakness on verse 6:

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.

We go to verse 7.

Psalm 12:7
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Working with the Mayer Gruber version, as the Judaica Press is lacking some of the text on this verse.

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You, O Lord, Will Keep them.

Keep it in their hearts (Rashi)

Footnote: The midrash reads "Keep their Torah in their hearts"

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Hmmm... hold the presses !
So immediately we have fine new information, double the fun.

Rashi and the midrash (presumably Midrash on Psalms, which has not been referenced on this verse in the recent discussions) apparently both support Psalm 12:7a being about the words of the Lord. Rashi clearly so, in a straightforward manner. Midrash on Psalms needing to be checked. This is powerful information and afaik has never been noted before in the discussions.

We have some of the words from the midrash, however on verse 6. The context of the quote was different so it will be next helpful to look up the midrash, the William Braude translation would be fine, and see if we can find something akin to :

"Keep their Torah in their hearts".
(Readers: Feel free to check your local university library and report back.)

“The words of the Lord are . . . silver tried in the open before all men, refined seven times seven.” “Rabbi Yannai said: The words of the Torah were not given as clear-cut decisions. For with every word which the Holy One, blessed be He, spoke to Moses..."

The Midrash on Psalms, trans. by William G. Braude, vol. I (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959), p. 173.

The context given there is one of the oral law discussions, our of our loop. However based on what we see in Rashi there might be some fine parts in the Midrash.

Note: Now we have learned that Doug Kutilek wrote deceptively.

Rabbinic scholar Rashi (d. 1105) writes, “you will keep them -- this is said concerning the poor and afflicted who are persecuted by this generation."
(Why Psalm 12:6,7 is not a Promise of the Infallible Preservation of Scripture, Doug Kutilek)

Hmmm... oopps.. Doug Kutilek did not tell his readers that this is a part of the Rashi Psalm 12:7b section. By simply quoting "you will keep them..." Kutilek wants to give the reader the false impression that Rashi is referring to all of verse 7, with Doug Kutilek knowing full well that is the impression that will be received by most. Since the readers are familiar with "Thou shalt keep them" as Psalm 12:7a.

Yet the Psalm 12:7a section from Rashi is as above, God is keeping the word of God in their heart ! (In Jewish understanding Torah is a multi-dimensional word, with meanings that include the 5 Books of Moses and Scripture as a whole.)

So surprisingly enough, this will end up being at least a 3-part response ! The import of all this is far-reaching, since the "split understanding" is a very big fly in the ointment of the attack on the King James Bible defender understanding that Psalm 12 does refer to God's words.

Please remember one thing. There really is absolutely no doubt, even among the informed opposition, that the King James Bible translation is 100% sound and accurate, and that the "preserve us" translations are very dubious, ie. errant, not representing the Hebrew Bible.

And within the King James Bible accurate and proper translation there are three general interpretations.

1) The words of God kept and preserved
2) 7a is words, 7b is poor and needy
3) Poor and needy preserved from this generation for ever !

And then there are the dual and ambiguous interpretations that allow for both.

Having discovered that Rashi had been greatly misrepresented, and lines best with (2) and with Ibn Ezra being (1) and David Kimchi being (2) or (3) (research needed) really changes the dynamic of the rabbinic evidences. I had previously been surprised that the major early rabbinics would be majority for persons, that simply did not seem likely looking at the simple context of the verse and knowing their sense. Now we see that it is simply is not the case, the rabbinics had been misrepresented. Also we discover the Midrash on Psalms may want to weigh in as well.

Now to be fair, there is a distinction between the words of God being kept in the heart of the believer and being preserved for all generations. In fact, one irony in all this is that if a split was to be had -- "preserve them from this generation for ever" clearly is a better fit for words than people ! However we will go into this more, by the grace of the Lord Jesus, in a future post.

We will next look at Rashi on Psalm 12:7b.

 

[Steven Avery]

Rashi on Psalm 12:7b

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Hi Folks,

Before more discussion, let us give the Rashi commentary on Psalm 12:7b.

Preserve them from this generation that they do not learn from (this Generation's) behaviour to be informers. Another equally plausible interpretation (of v. 8 is the following). Keep them (ie. those poor and impoverished who are persecuted from (being victimized by) this generation, who are informers.
(Rashi's Commentary on Psalms - translated by Mayer I. Gruber - 2008)

Note what Doug Kutilek offered as the Rashi interpretation is actually his second, alternative interpretation. (The Judaica Press publication only gives the first interpretation, so that cannot be the reason, my conjecture is that Doug Kutileki looked up a translation from Old French to Hebrew or Aramaic and then deliberately parsed the information for his own purposes. If I am wrong on this I would be happy to be corrected and I acknowledge that this is all new as of yesterday and no effort has been made to check with Doug Kutilek.)

So we noticed that Doug Kutilek also simplified the Rashi interpretation in order to match his absurd attempt to paint "words" as preserved as some sort of "totally foreign" interpretation that would come from those who handle the word of God "deceitfully" and "dishonestly". The putrid accusation that David Cloud rightly characterized as a mouse attacking elephants ! -- since Kutilek had mentioned a number of excellent scholars who interpret the verse with an emphasis on words. Now we find that it appears that Kutilek had to quote "deceitfully and dishonestly" in order to try to make this case of deceitfulness against others ! Oh, what a web.

Ok, next we will look at the two competing interpretations. Neither one of which has very much pizazz .. however at least they come from a writer of competence and scriptural insight, who wrote quite interestingly about the verses. However, off to work for now.

 

[Steven Avery]

Eaton - the main Hebrew tradition

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Hi Folks,

A little sidenote, a puzzle solved.

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...8&postcount=27
Psalm 12:7 - Commentaries

J. H. Eaton - Torch Bible Commentaries (1967)
"...but we may rather follow the main Hebrew tradition:
"Thou O Lord shalt keep them (i.e. watch over the words to fulfill them, Jer. 1:12)..."

Jeremiah 1:12
Then said the LORD unto me,
Thou hast well seen:
for I will hasten my word to perform it.

The question was how John H. Eaton referenced the "main Hebrew tradition" if Rashi and Kimchi had both not applied keep to words. With Ibn Ezra taking the words side. Now we have the answer. Rashi had been misrepresented and in Psalm 12:7a does apply 'keep' to words, against most of the modernist weak interpretations. (And we will try to track down the fulness of Kimchi's interpretation.)

Shalom,
Steven

 

[Steven Avery]

Re: " Psalm 12:7 - the Promise of Preservation"

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Aloha brother Steve,

Quote:

"Note what Doug Kutilek offered as the Rashi interpretation is actually his second, alternative interpretation. (The Judaica Press publication only gives the first interpretation, so that cannot be the reason, my conjecture is that Doug Kutileki looked up a translation from Old French to Hebrew or Aramaic and then deliberately parsed the information for his own purposes. If I am wrong on this I would be happy to be corrected and I acknowledge that this is all new as of yesterday and no effort has been made to check with Doug Kutilek.)"

Early on in my studies on the issue of "Which Bible", one of the many things that helped convince me of its perfection was the crafty, shifty, devious, underhanded, and dishonest manner in which the detractors of the King James Bible handled ALL of the evidence: {Internal (within the KJB Text Itself); Historical (Old & New Testament <> Transmission of the Text <> Church History, etc.); The "Manipulation" of the Manuscript Evidence; and the Invention of "Fallacious Theories" (Griesbach’s elaborate Manuscript "FAMILIES" HYPOTHESIS; the "LUCIAN RECENSION"; the highly complex Westcott and Hort "TEXTUAL THEORY"; etc.; etc.); to bolster their claims against the King James Bible, or the Texts from which it was derived.

The deceitful manner in which these so-called "scholars" operate amounts to TREASON, and Almighty God hates "treachery" even more than "backsliding"!

Isaiah 24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.

Jeremiah 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

The testimony of the Holy Scriptures is crystal clear: God HATES treachery! And these "Christian scholars" have dealt treacherously with God's Holy words! They do not have a "love of the truth", but instead are found to be fighting against God Himself!

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

After dealing with these people for over 40 years I have come to the conclusion that nothing will change their minds. Their hearts are set in stone, and nothing short of the personal intervention of Almighty God is going to change the course of their erroneous and fraudulent "researches"; or influence their mistaken, misleading, and unfounded "conclusions".

When it comes to the Holy word of God - they are REPROBATE! And I personally believe that God has given them over to a "reprobate mind" - at least as far as His Holy words are concerned.

I greatly appreciate your painstaking research on these issues; it reinforces my own research into these issues back in the late 1960's, the 1970's, and the 1980's. I'm glad that someone has stepped up to contend with these disingenuous "scholars" - I have grown weary of dealing with these people after all of these years.

Keep up the good work!

 

[Steven Avery]

thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

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Originally Posted by George Aloha brother Steve... I greatly appreciate your painstaking research on these issues; it reinforces my own research into these issues back in the late 1960's, the 1970's, and the 1980's ...(Keep up the good work!

Thanks George. I like to take one interesting item and really study it from many angles. In so doing I am placed in a position of seeking out new vistas, new background and understanding, new learning.

Before returning to Rashi and other items in process (hmm.. can I get to the University and look up William Braude Midrash on Psalms ? Even the Judaica store might have the book on the shelf

) I will share a tidbit of interest.

Above I have been emphasizing :

"thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever"

As being particularly sensible for the words of God. And particularly awkward for the poor and needy. Delitzsch accidentally highlights this in his modernist commentary when he says, with a straight face:

The "preserving for ever" is so constant, that neither now nor at any future time will they succumb to this generation. (Bible Commentary on the Psalms - Franz Delitzsch p. 197)

By the later 1800s many translation theories had changed, often under modernist German (often unbelieving or facade-believing) influence. e.g. Delitzsch was one of the primary movers in changing Isaiah 13:15, which has its own thread. By this period the quality of the Commentaries had generally gone way downhill, which you can see by .. simply reading.

As a little aside Arno Clement Gaebelein (The Annotated Bible, 1921) tests us that:

"The great Leipzig professor, Franz Delitzsch, also joined the band of 'scientific butchers,' and declared that the second part of Isaiah is of post-exilic authorship."

Thus such a scholar, sans a solid Bible-believing base, could write about "nor at any future time will they succumb to this generation" without any concern that the logic is upside-down.

Shalom,
Steven

 

[Steven Avery]

Rashi on Psalm 12:7b - thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever

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Hi Folks,

Now we move to Rashi on Psalm 12:7b.

Psalm 12:7
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Preserve them from this generation that they do not learn from (this Generation's) behaviour to be informers. Another equally plausible interpretation (of v. 8 is the following). Keep them (ie. those poor and impoverished who are persecuted from (being victimized by) this generation, who are informers.
(Rashi's Commentary on Psalms - translated by Mayer I. Gruber - 2008)

Clearly this is an unusual commentary. The reason is explained in an article by Avi Baumol which discusses the commentaries of Rashi, Radak and Malbim. The Avi Baumol commentary itself is interesting, mixed, yet it really explains the Rashi context.

Tehillim: The Book of Psalms by Avi Baumol.

Psalm 12, in a word, is about words. Our greatest medium of expression is indeed King David's most precious vehicle for connecting to his creator. However, there is a grave danger that surrounds the use, or rather abuse, of words ...

Psalm 12 represents a significant change in David's attitude in his Psalms. It is an enclosed unit devoted almost entirely to one topic: words. It does not have to do with David's suffering, or his despair. Nor is there a plea for salvation in general. Rather, David has one thing on his mind:

"Save O God, for honesty, integrity is gone, trustworthiness has been stripped from man. Lies and deceit speaks one to the other, a language of smoothness, superficial communication. Let God obliterate all who smooth talk, those who speak with high-flouting language.

Let God obliterate those who brazenly state, our words will strengthen us, we are our own masters. They who prey on the downtrodden, they who embezzle from the simple. I shall arise, says God, wage war against those who breathe out erring air. God's words are pure, as molten silver, glowing from the furnace. You God (alone) will guard the downtrodden, watch over this generation."

... Rashi ... remains true to the tradition and maintains that the psalms were written by David, and are about David.

As David was dodging King Shaul's spear, he experienced an eerie alliance from people living in the wilderness of Zif. They accepted him and offered him peace. At the same time, using their 'other hearts,' they went to Shaul and betrayed David's hideout, waiting for a reward for David's ultimate demise.

It was not the people of Zif who were killing David; they merely spoke words to Shaul, informing on David, and causing a near tragic ending to David's life. Against them, David speaks out, 'where are the honest and wholehearted people in the world? Why must I encounter smooth talkers who speak with one heart but adhere to the other? Let God strike down those who talk with such haughtiness...'

Rashi finds an historical background to trace the motivation for David's psalm.

Thus we can well understand the Rashi emphasis on "informers". Rashi is looking through a historical lens with David at the center. This is something he does on many Psalms, an interesting example being Psalm 2 where Rashi avoids the powerful Messianic interpretation that is later given by Ibn Ezra.

Within his lens, Rashi offers two interpretations. Both bump up against the difficulty mentioned in the last post.

from this generation for ever.

Rashi

A) Preserve them from this generation that they do not learn from (this Generation's) behaviour to be informers.

B) Keep them (ie. those poor and impoverished who are persecuted from (being victimized by) this generation, who are informers.

Neither of these are not really preservation in our traditional positive sense, and our protective sense, they are more "keep away from .." in the sense of separation. The first is close in sense to :

1 Corinthians 15:33
Be not deceived:
evil communications corrupt good manners.

While the second is to avoid the evil done by informers. (This is closer to our traditional sense, albeit with the imposed limitations of the informer context.)

Thus Rashi has to simply bypass:

from this generation for ever.

So while Rashi's interpretation of Psalm 12:7b can be seen as an interesting midrashic attempt, it is not really strong as the pshat, the simple and clear reading of the Bible text. Rashi is working with a limited Davidic lens and he even has to omit discussing the salient "for ever" (such as we saw in the Delitzsch flying-in-time leap). In order to try to work the verse into being about not becoming informers and being protected from informers, the needs of those around David.

Fascinating, yet not of great significance. The Rashi usage of Psalm 12:7a for keeping Torah on the hearts of men and the Midrash on Psalms full reference (to track down) are the main elements of interest. And the Rashi interpretation of Psalm 12:6 is quite nice.

Now, it might be good to mention that there is nothing at all in these Hebraic studies that even remotely allows for the common error of translating Psalm 12:7b as "preserve us" rather than the correct "preserve them". From a strictly translation point-of-view this is the major error made on the verses in the modern versions. Do the modern versions mistranslate deliberately in order to avoid the application of Psalm 12 to the preservation of the words of God ?

Returning to Rashi ...
solabiblia, I hope this has been helpful in answering your question.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

 

[Steven Avery]

Tehillim (Psalms) - 2 recent translations

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Hi Folks,

Remember how John H. Eaton discussed the "main Hebrew tradition" .

"But we may rather follow the main Hebrew tradition: "Thou O Lord shalt keep them (i.e. watch over the words to fulfill them, Jer. 1:12)" (Torch Bible Commentaries, 1967).

Having discussed the Rashi commentary, I would like to look at a couple of more recent Jewish translations of Psalm 12. More from the religious Jewish publications as the less religious tends to simply follow modern scholarship ideas.

These two recent publications of Psalms will give an idea of the translations. First:

Psalm 12:6-7 (KJB)
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Next the Hebrew traditional understanding expressed in recent translation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TXKbHVSAy60C
Tehillim: Eis ratzon : a time of favor - translated Yaakov Yosef Iskowitz, 2004

The words of the Eternal are pure words;
like purified silver, revealed to the world,
refined seven times.
You, O Eternal, will guard them;
You will protect them from a generation such as this, forever.

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...Chapter-12.htm
Tehilllim Ohel Yoseph Yitzchok -Y.B. Marcus, Nissen Mangel and Eliyahu Touger (1994)

The words of the Lord are pure words,
like silver refined in the finest earthen crucible,
purified seven times.
May You, O Lord, watch over them;
may You forever guard them from this generation,
[in which] the wicked walk on every side;
when they are exalted it is a disgrace to mankind.

In both cases it is easy to see that the flow of the verses, the simple and clear meaning, is the watching, guarding, protecting of the words of the LORD.

Here is another, on the web.

http://www.freewebs.com/jewish-spiri...l/Tehillim.pdf
In The Morning: Selected Psalms translated by Yaacov Dovid Shulman

The words of God
Are pure words.
They are silver refined
From a caldron onto the ground
And filtered seven times.
You, God, guard them.
Keep them from this generation
Constantly,
From the evil-doers who prowl in a circle,
When depravity is exalted amidst all men.

 

[Steven Avery]

Psalm 12 in poetic form

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Hi Folks,

There is a powerpoint presentation on the Psalms, entertaining and reasonably informative, albeit with some mishegas, paying attention to the deficient form critics. Yet also good material. Rollin J. Blackburn prepared this for teaching in seminary and uses the NKJV in the text (oops) .. what is fascinating is that Psalm 12 is laid out in a poetic fashion, which highlights the true interpretation. Possibly they forgot to check with the modernist interpreters

and took the simple and clear path. And the two verses are put in their own stanza.

http://www.romans12two.net/downloads/Poets/Psalms.pdf
The Psalms
http://www.romans12two.net/downloads/Poets/Psalms2.pdf
Sepher Tehillim (p.39)

The words of the LORD are pure words,
.............Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
.............Purified seven times. You shall keep them,
O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

The same poetic style would look very nice with the pure KJB words, (putting aside not using indent HTML).

Shalom,
Steven

 

[Steven Avery]

Sfar Emes - Yehudah Aryeh Leib Alter

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Originally Posted by Will Kinney Hi Steve. Thanks for these additional sources.

Most welcome, Will. After noticing how Rashi was misrepresented in the anti-preservation article of Doug Kutilek, I figgerred the Jewish interps could use a closer check. Where possible I prefer to track down a primary source, as we saw with Rashi that often tells you a lot more. Especially when the existing summary or snippet is given by a writer struggling to deny the tangible preservation of the pure and perfect word of God.

Here is another one of some interest and strength, that is complementary to Samson Raphael Hirsch. Sfas Emes is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehudah_Aryeh_Leib_Alter
Yehudah Aryeh Leib Alter (1847–1905), also known by the title of his main work, the Sfas Emes, was a Hasidic rabbi who succeeded his grandfather, Rabbi Yitzchak Meir Alter, as the av beis din (head of the rabbinical court) and Rav of Góra Kalwaria, Poland (known in Yiddish as the town of Ger), and succeeded the Rebbe, Reb Heynekh of Alexander, as Rebbe of the Gerrer Hasidim ... Rabbi Yehudah Aryeh Leib was one of the greatest Torah scholars of his generation,

http://www.torah.org/advanced/sfas-e...5/shavuos.html
Sfas Emes
Shavuos By Nosson Chayim Leff

... the Sfas Emes quotes from Tehillim (12:7-8): "Imros HaShem imaros tehoros ... " (ArtScroll: "The words of HaShem are pure words; like purified silver ... refined sevenfold ("shiva'sayim") ...

The pasuk continues: "May, You, HaShem, protect them ...". The Sfas Emes explains that the "them" which the pasuk is asking HaShem to protect refers to the words of Torah. Their purity will be preserved by their being kept in the purity of our hearts. The Zohar (and the Sfas Emes) are telling us is that now, at our Matan Torah, we too should prepare our hearts to be vessels suitable for preserving the Torah in its purity.

.... The Medrash explains that Dovid Hamelech composed that perek (chapter) (Tehilim, 12) in a very specific historical context. .... Dovid Hamelech prayed to HaShem to protect them (the bright scholars and their Learning).

Clearly there is a lot of emphasis in the hasidic interpretation that is mystical, arcane and away from our Christian perspective. It is likely that Samson Hirsch is more down to earth, reflecting the streams of Jewish thought, hasidic and mitnagdim (which would be the more traditional 'orthodox').

From Leib, we see clearly that "protect them" is, as with Rashi, applied to protecting the words of God (Torah) so as to be efficacious and lasting in the hearts of the people. In the section above, we cannot tell if Lieb specifically discusses the second part of the verse, however we can see once again that the main Hebrew tradition is that :

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,

"them" Is a direct reference to the immediately preceding subject :

The words of the LORD

 

[Steven Avery]

whither the preservation opponents belligerance ?

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Hi Folks,

Now I would like to emphasize that the belligerence against the King James Bible defender understanding of Psalm 12 has always been a curious, even dark, phenomenon. First, these men are usually quick to proclaim the truth of the preservation of God's word (what they would call "the message") yet they are insistent that we are not supposed to see this in the beautiful Psalm !

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Yet the simple read of Psalm 12 (if the translation is not tampered to "preserve us" or in other ways, another critical trick of deception) clearly fits extremely well the preservation of the word of God. In three complementary yet distinct ways:

a) localized flow of the words - verse 6 to verse 7
b) the theme of the whole Psalm (post #8)
c) theme of the Bible as a whole. (post #5)

Remember that many of the most complementary verses are in the NT and would be out of the perspective of the recent discussion of Jewish commentary.

Worthy of special emphasis is :

1 Peter 1:23-25
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass
The word of the Lord endureth for ever

Which very neatly ties together the very same themes as our verses.

On page one of this thread is a partial list of complementary verses.

The belligerent adversary has to go so far as to claim a total disconnect between :

The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.

And:

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,

This is prima facie a very difficult and dubious position to take. And on closer examination it becomes that much more dubious.

One of the ironies though is that they have to take the belligerent position. After all, when you look at the two phrases :

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,

thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

It is hard to see how anyone, with a straight face, can claim that the two "thems" have totally different referents !

Another irony is that it is the second "them" that contextually most clearly refers to the words of God. The critical phrase that shows this is "from this generation for ever".

In fact, the commentators who fell for the "only people" view will comment, in their more lucid moments, on the awkwardnesses in their understandings. We see them giving strained attempts to account for the "from this generation for ever", a phrase which simply does not fit well to comfort for the poor and needy. Those commentators also struggle with the strangeness of the Psalm moving (in their interpretation) from victory and comfort in preservation of the poor and needy unto despair over the wicked and vile who oppress the poor and needy at the end of the Psalm.

Later I hope to put together a couple of posts shortly showing those awkwardnesses, using mostly the words of the commentators themselves, even the ones stuck with the awkward and ill-fitting "only persons" interp. (The problems are easy to see, but in their zeal to attack the preservation of God's word, the modern version proponents operate on a very low scholastic level.) Granted these are in a sense secondary issues, however in the context of this thread and study they are worthy of note.

Another point that would be good to review are the various interpreters who give a dual or mixed interpretation, how they try to take that position, what makes sense, what does not, and more.

Shalom,
Steven

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[Steven Avery]

Augustine on Psalm 12

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Hi Folks,

The first example of an awkward interpretation is early and interesting. Although the following is shared for more general purposes.

We have Augustine, around 420 AD. Giving us an historical window for our multi-dimensional study

. Now remember Augustine was stuck with the deficient Greek text with "preserve us" - so we know he has to have a "persons" interpretation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zqBaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA104
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801012.htm

Exposition on Psalm 12 - Augustine

The words of the Lord are pure words. This is in the person of the Prophet himself, The words of the Lord are pure words. He says pure, without the alloy of pretence. For many preach the truth impurely; (Philippians 1:16) for they sell it for the bribe of the advantages of this life. Of such the Apostle says, that they declared Christ not purely. Silver tried by the fire for the earth. These words of the Lord by means of tribulations approved to sinners. Purified seven times: by the fear of God, by godliness, by knowledge, by might, by counsel, by understanding, by wisdom. (Isaiah 11:2) For seven steps also of beatitude there are, which the Lord goes over, according to Matthew, in the same sermon which He spoke on the Mount, Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed the meek, blessed they that mourn, blessed they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, blessed the merciful, blessed the pure in heart, blessed the peacemakers. (Matthew 5:3-9) Of which seven sentences, it may be observed how all that long sermon was spoken. For the eighth where it is said, Blessed are they which suffer persecution for righteousness' sake, (Matthew 5:10) denotes the fire itself, whereby the silver is proved seven times. And at the termination of this sermon it is said, For He taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. (Matthew 7:29) Which refers to that which is said in this Psalm, I deal confidently in Him.

You, O Lord, shall preserve us, and keep us from this generation to eternity: here as needy and poor, there as wealthy and rich.

The irony of saying the poor are preserved as wealthy is itself a rich irony, showing one awkwardnesses of the "persons" interpretation. By no means probative, yet indicative of the difficulties. Augustine apparently smooths it a bit by "to eternity" - implying preserved unto salvation, one of a number of interpretations that are given when Psalm 12:7b is applied to persons.

This above is also given to the thread for the purpose of showing our first known exegesis on Psalm 12. Well, when we have the Midrash on Psalms text we will have a similar early text (with a less exact date). The first section about silver tried and words is quite interesting.

 

[Steven Avery]

the oppo text-version and argument ? all over the map

---

Hi Folks,

Hmm.. I was preparing a post to show a major flaw in the opponents arguments, and then I realized the terrible truth ..

We don't know what are the opponents arguments, nor their text and version. You can read long articles that they write, and you will never find out what is the actual Bible (in their view). Amazing.

Now some claim the King James Bible is mistranslated, others not at all. Some claim that Psalm 12:6-7 have nothing to do with the preservation of the word of God. Some claim that limitation only for verse Psalm 12:7b. Some claim that Psalm 12:6 is only about God keeping one promise earlier in the verse. Some claim that the problem is not really translational, or even conceptual in the idea of preservation, simply our interpretation - applying the promise of Psalm 12 to the specific tangible, readable Bible in our hands, the King James Bible. And there are more variations on their themes.

So I realized that I had to understand what the specific opponent accepted as the text and I thought that might be fairly easy. Yet a review of the version babel and their articles shows something very different. You simply never know what they claim is the true Bible text and when it comes to their actual kvetch against the King James Bible, they are all over the map.

The opponents of Psalm 12:6-7 against the King James Bible as being the preserved word of God have a hodge-podge of translations with very different meanings, even on just the one fulcrum verse, Psalm 12:7.

So this post will be simply a review of ... who says what. Then we can try to unravel the various opponents confusions.

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Thus we read the pure Bible .. with 'them and them'.

The cornfuseniks read four very different major possibilities and then some other ones. No wonder they don't even know what position they are taking !

The following list is of course not complete. However it gives the picture.

Oppo Variety-Pack

Us and Us
Them and Us
Them and Him
Them and Them

Them and Each
Them and Me
Them and Us (paraphrase - them=needy)
Them and Them (paraphrase - them=Oppressed)

Here is the alphabet soup.

==================================

US and US

HCSB - Holman Christian Standard Bible
You, Lord, will guard us;
You will protect us from this generation forever.

NIV - New International Version
O Lord, you will keep us safe
and protect us from such people forever.

NRSV - New Revised Standard Version
You, O Lord, will protect us;
you will guard us from this generation forever.

RSV - Revised Standard Version
Do thou, O LORD, protect us,
guard us ever from this generation.

GNT - Good News Translation
Keep us always safe, O Lord,
and preserve us from such people.

NCV - New Century Version
Lord, you will keep us safe;
you will always protect us from such people.

TEV - Today's English Version
Keep us always safe, O LORD,
and preserve us from such people.

Message (Paraphrase)
God, keep us safe from their lies,
From the wicked who stalk us with lies,

New Life Bible
O Lord, You will keep us.
You will keep us safe forever from the people of this day.

NAB - New American bible
LORD, protect us always; preserve us from this generation.

===

GREEK AND LATIN TEXTS - US & US

LXX (Brenton)
Thou, O Lord, shalt keep us,
and shalt preserve us, from this generation, and for ever.

Rheims
Thou, O Lord, wilt preserve us:
and keep us from this generation for ever.

==================================

THEM AND US

English Standard Version
You, O Lord, will keep them;
you will guard us* from this generation forever.
* Or guard him

Young's Literral
Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them,
Thou keepest us from this generation to the age.

Amplified
You will keep them and preserve them, O Lord;
You will guard and keep us from this [evil] generation forever.

JPS-1917
Thou wilt keep them, O LORD;
Thou wilt preserve us from this generation for ever.

Soncino
Thou wilt keep them, O LORD
Thou wilt preserve us from this generation for ever.

DSS Bible
You, O LORD, will protect them;
you will preserve us from this generation forever

==================================

THEM AND HIM

NASV - New American Standard
You, O LORD, will keep them;
You will preserve him from this generation forever.

EMPHASIZED - Rotherdam
Thou, O Yahweh, wilt keep them,
--Thou wilt guard him, from this generation unto times age-abiding.

GENEVA
Thou wilt keep them, O Lord:
thou wilt preserve him from this generation for ever.

JUDAICA PRESS
You, O Lord, shall guard them;
You shall guard him from this generation forever.

AINSWORTH
Thou Jehovah wilt keep them,
will preserve him * from this generation for ever.
ie. every one of them

==================================

THEM and EACH

JPS-1985 & 2004
You, O LORD, will keep them,
guarding * each from this age * evermore.
* Meaning of Heb. uncertain

==================================

THEM AND ME

Peshitta (Lamsa from Aramaic)
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD;
thou shalt preserve me and save me from this generation for ever.

==================================

THEM and US - (Paraphrase - Defining THEM as the needy)

TNIV - Today's New International Version
You, Lord, will keep the needy safe
and will protect us forever from the wicked

==================================

THEM and THEM -- (Paraphrase - Defining THEM as Oppressed)

NLT - New Living Translation
Therefore, LORD, we know you will protect the oppressed,
preserving them forever from this lying generation,

==================================

THEM AND THEM - (Similar to KJB, often with other weaknesses)

NKJV - New King James Version
You shall keep them, O Lord,
You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

ASV - American Standard Version
Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah,
Thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Webster
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

BBE = Bible in Basic English
You will keep them, O Lord,
you will keep them safe from this generation for ever.

ERV - English Revised Version
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Darby
Thou, Jehovah, wilt keep them,
thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Or 'him:' see end of ver. 5.

LITV - MKJV Jay Green Literal
You shall keep them, O Jehovah;
You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

NJB - New Jerusalem Bible
You, Yahweh, will watch over them,
you will protect them from that brood for ever.

World English Bible
You will keep them, Yahweh,
You will preserve them from this generation forever.

The Book of Tehillim - Moses Greenfield (1985)
Thou shalt keep them, O Lord,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Tehillim: Eis ratzon -Yaakov Yosef Iskowitz, (2004)
You, O Eternal, will guard them;
You will protect them from a generation such as this, forever.

Tehilllim Ohel Yoseph Yitzchok -Y.B. Marcus, Nissen Mangel and Eliyahu Touger (1994)
May You, O Lord, watch over them;
may You forever guard them from this generation,

In The Morning: Selected Psalms translated by Yaacov Dovid Shulman
You, God, guard them.
Keep them from this generation

==================================

In future posts I hope to highlight the slipperiness of the opposition multi-positions, and various contradictions. However for now, I just want to make it clear the babel version aspect of the cornfuseniks. Look at the most vocal opponents, and try to get a clear idea of what the word of God actually says (even before interpretation) and you will find .. mud.

By contrast, we can be most thankful for God's sure word.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.

 

[Steven Avery]

one more for the road - NETBible

---

Hi Folks,

And we can add the NETBible (Daniel Wallace presiding) to the oddball "Them and Each" (which could be considered as a strange offshoot to "Them and Him", one of the four common translations).

NET Bible
You, LORD, will protect them;
you will continually shelter each one from these evil people,

Notice the unique strangeness, transforming "for ever" (le`olâm) to "continually" and dropping "this generation" (min-haddor). "Continually" is a mistranslations meant to smooth away one the contextual awkwardness problems. We see a lot of this type of translation junque in the recent push for an 'all persons' translation and interpretation, pretending it is supported by the Masoretic Hebrew text.

(Clearly if somebody wants to say they are following the Greek OT or Vulgate a "persons" translation with implied interpretation would be consistent. From the corrupt text. Although you would have to have "us" and "us".)

We have the NETBible dropping "this generation" with this note:

"The noun דוֹר (dor, “generation”) refers here to the psalmist’s contemporaries, who were characterized by deceit and arrogance (see vv. 1-2)."

The note is lame because it is used as an excuse and it offers no reason to drop the word. And replace "generation" with an out-of-place "from these evil people". This is paraphrase translation at its worse, dictating in the text your personal interpretation. When that occurs it is very likely the interpretation itself is deficient.

In this NETBible case the two textual tamperings and one very dubious translation ("each one") were combined in order to deceive the NETBible reader. To try to subtilely fight against the pure Bible words and understanding.

Psalm 12:6-7
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

PS.
Dear reader, bear with me and sharpen your multi-tasking skills. The main problem now is .. a wealth of new and interesting material and analysis and discussion to share.

 

[Steven Avery]

Martin Luther's commentary and hymn

---

Hi Folks,

Martin Luther is referenced in the Psalm 12 discussion. Today we have the English translation of the commentary and the full text of the hymn (which is usually the only reference).

http://books.google.com/books?id=TUYEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA41

A manual of the Book of psalms: or, The subject-contents of all the Psalms by Martin Luther - translated by Henry Cole (1837)

This is a prayer containing a heavy complaint against them, who, introduce human doctrines instead of the word of God, and who, afterwards, by various new traditions and forms of worship disturb the church, and fill all things with a white-wash show of religion, and with the outward daubing of Pharisaism and hypocrisy, so that wicked men and hypocrites reign on every side, as the last verse complains. For when human doctrines have once invaded the church, they go on to rage far and wide, and spread in all directions like a cancer; there is no end to their corruption and destructive influence ; they take possession of all things and wonderfully vex and torment consciences: so that the number of the true saints and of those that truly fear God is few and small indeed : of this the infinite variety of papistical hypocrisy affords a manifest example.

But we are consoled and comforted under all these afflictions by the consideration that God always raises up in his church, sometimes in this place and sometimes in that, his salvation; that is, his word and gospel ; which, while the prophets, apostles, and other ministers throughout the world, boldly and plainly teach against all heresy, they detect and bring to light false doctrines, and overturn all false worship; for where the salvation of God is, (that is, the saving word of Christ and his gospel) it burns up and consumes, like a suddenly-kindled fire, all the chaff and straw of human traditions, and delivers oppressed consciences.

This, however, never takes place without afflictions, and the cross in various forms. But as gold and silver are proved by the fire, so the true knowledge and purity of the word is not preserved in the church but by means of the truly spiritual and godly, who for the word's sake are exercised without and within by Satan, with various temptations: for these, like gold, are proved in the fire, and thus grow daily and flourish in the knowledge of the gospel, and the great things of God.

Now Luther's commentary is not the softest, clearest read, yet it is sensible. Here are the two critical phrases for our discussion of his application.

we are consoled and comforted ... God always raises up in his church, sometimes in this place and sometimes in that, his salvation; that is, his word and gospel ;

the true knowledge and purity of the word is not preserved in the church but by means of the truly spiritual and godly

Note especially that Martin Luther is discussing how the purity of the word is preserved.

And here is what is said about the Martin Luther hymn, again with the truth being preserved.

http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl040003.htm
Psalm 12:7 and Bible Preservation - David Cloud
(from Peter Van Kleeck)

"Martin Luther's German Bible ... Following the arrangement of this Psalm, Luther penned a hymn, two stanzas of which reflect his understanding of verse 6 and 7: ...

"Thy truth thou wilt preserve, O Lord, from this vile generation..."

In poetic form, Luther grasps the significance of this verse both for the preservation of those who are oppressed and for the Word of God. The two-pronged significance of this interpretation to both people and God's words in Luther's Psalter was to have wide-ranging significance in the English Bible tradition.

And in fact, the hymm is a very pleasant and solid hymn, with application to our current discussions ! The first link is for the musically inclined.

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=c...html&Itemid=27
Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh’ darein.
Look down, O Lord, from Heaven behold.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RCtIBt5q_7QC&pg=PA42
Hymns of Martin Luther

http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/hy...ml/behold.homl

"Look down, O Lord, from heaven behold"
by Martin Luther, 1483-1546
Text From:
THE HYMNS OF MARTIN LUTHER
(New York: Charles Scribner'sSons, 1883), p. 7

1. Look down, O Lord, from heaven behold,
And let thy pity waken!
How few the flock within thy fold,
Neglected and forsaken!
Almost thou'lt seek for faith in vain,
And those who should thy truth maintain
Thy Word from us have taken.

2. With frauds which they themselves invent
Thy truth they have confounded;
Their hearts are not with one consent
On thy pure doctrine grounded;
And, whilst they gleam with outward show,
They lead thy people to and fro,
In error's maze astounded.

3. God surely will uproot all those
With vain deceits who store us,
With haughty tongue who God oppose,
And say, "Who'll stand before us?
By right or might we will prevail;
What we determine cannot fail,
For who can lord it o'er us?"

4. For this, saith God, I will arise,
These wolves my flock are rending;
I've heard my people's bitter sighs
To heaven my throne ascending:
Now will I up, and set at rest
Each weary soul by fraud opprest,
The poor with might defending.

5. The silver seven times tried is pure
From all adulteration;
So, through God's word, shall men endure
Each trial and temptation:
Its worth gleams brighter through the cross,
And, purified from human dross,
It shines through every nation.

6. Thy truth thou wilt preserve, O Lord,
From this vile generation;
Make us to lean upon thy word,
With calm anticipation.
The wicked walk on every side
When, 'mid thy flock, the vile abide
In power and exaltation.
__________________________________________________ __________
Notes:
Text: Psalm 12-"Salvum me fac, Domine.
Hymn II from "The Hymns of Martin Luther"
Author: Martin Luther
Translated by: Frances Elizabeth Cox
Titled: "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sich' darein"
1st Melody: "Es ist das Heil uns kommen her,", 1524
Harmony: A. Haupt, 1869
2nd Melody: from Klug's Gesanbuch, 1543
Harmony: A. Haupt, 1869
1st Published in:"Eight Songs"
Town: Wittenberg, 1524
__________________________________________________ _________

 

[Steven Avery]

Pure Words Integrity Award

---

Hi Folks,

To finish up the morning, we will give the :

Pure Words Integrity Award

To .. a modern version translator ! For his willingness to speak clearly and accurately about the translation and interpretation of Psalm 12.

William D. Barrick has translated a smidgen here and there

. For over two decades. In Bangladesh and the USA .. working on the English Standard Version .. and .. the NETBible !?

Hmm.....

http://www.drbarrick.org/Website Files/Ps 012.pdf
Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs:
The Master Musician’s Melodies
Adult Sunday School Placerita Baptist Church (2003)
by William D. Barrick, Th.D.
Professor of OT, The Master’s Seminary

William Barrick gives the Psalm with NKJV verses !?
And he references the excellent Martin Luther hymn.

Hmm...

This is one section.

5.0 Praying Psalm 12
Lord, help me! [v. 1]
Help the godly person to stand and prevail. [v. 1]
Oh, God, shut the mouths of the wicked. [vv. 3-4]
Thank You, Lord, for Your pure and precious Word. [v. 6]
Give me a greater desire for Your Word, Father. [v. 7]
Cleanse me with Your Word. [vv. 6-7]

Now, hold on to your seats.
Commentary on verse 6 and 7.

v. 6 “Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.”

* Figure of smelting and refining.

* Implications for bibliology (doctrine concerning the Word of God):

Authenticity and integrity of God’s Word: The Bible is truly
God’s revealed truth and is dependable. Cf. Daniel 10:21; Psalm
119:160; John 17:17.

Inerrancy and infallibility of God’s Word: The Bible does not
contain error and does not deceive or lead astray. Cf. Psalm 19:7;
Proverbs 6:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:6.

Preciousness of God’s Word: The Bible is dear to the believer and
extremely profitable for spiritual nourishment and growth. Cf.
Psalm 19:10; 1 Peter 2:2.

v. 7 “You shall keep them”

The “poor and needy” of v. 5?

The “words” of v. 6 This is the better view.

Thank you, Professor Barrick.
We present you with the :

Psalm 12 Pure Words Integrity Award !

This is irrespective of your overall views on the King James Bible and textual and translational theory. And whatever the pluses and minuses of your overall body of work. Note: there is very interesting creationary writing from Professor Barrick and much of his material is an edifying read eg. the Psalm 22 article.

We appreciate your understanding Psalm 12 and we thank you for putting your views out for the public, for any and all to read. We realize that you were directly referencing.

"Thou shalt keep them, O LORD" (KJB)

And not specifically, directly referencing :

"thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

By your usage of the NKJV (them..them) and the lack of any stated counterpoint and limitation, and especially the included teachings above and the Martin Luther hymn reference, it does appear that your comment is reasonable to understand as your view of the whole verse 7. Either way, it is such a refreshing breath of fresh air for a scholar today (outside of the King James Bible defenders) to speak as you do above about the beautiful Psalm 12 and the preservation of the word of God that the award stands - even if your view on Psalm 12:7b is nuanced or different

.

Shalom,
Steven

PS.
The verse references from above are deserving of a separate post.

 

[Steven Avery]

Authenticity and integrity of God’s Word

---

Hi Folks,

The Psalm 12 verse references from William D. Barrick

.

Authenticity and integrity of God’s Word: The Bible is truly
God’s revealed truth and is dependable. Cf. Daniel 10:21; Psalm
119:160; John 17:17.

Daniel 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:
and there is none that holdeth with me in these things,
but Michael your prince.

Psalms 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning:
and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Inerrancy and infallibility of God’s Word: The Bible does not
contain error and does not deceive or lead astray. Cf. Psalm 19:7;
Proverbs 6:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:6.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:
the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp;
and the law is light;
and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

1 Thessalonians 2:3
For our exhortation was not of deceit,
nor of uncleanness,
nor in guile:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1 John 4:6
We are of God:
he that knoweth God heareth us;
he that is not of God heareth not us.
Hereby know we the spirit of truth,
and the spirit of error

Preciousness of God’s Word: The Bible is dear to the believer and
extremely profitable for spiritual nourishment and growth. Cf.
Psalm 19:10; 1 Peter 2:2.

Psalms 19:10
More to be desired are they than gold,
yea, than much fine gold:
sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn babes,
desire the sincere milk of the word,
that ye may grow thereby:

Shalom,
Steven Avery

 

[Steven Avery]

Quote:

Steven Avery.... I like to take one interesting item and really study it from many angles. In so doing I am placed in a position of seeking out new vistas, new background and understanding, new learning.

Thank you for the inspiration, Steven. This thread is awesome. Keep writing.....and continue to salt your research with your colorful commentary. The information gets tedious at times without the gentle humor. I love the way you make your points and really nail it. The issue becomes clear as day. I hope you write a book eventually. Godspeed as you continue to defend the integrity of Scripture. May it result in turning the hearts of the doubters and skeptics.
Shalom,
Tandi

 

[Steven Avery]

sololoquy

---

Hi Folks,

Thanks so much, Tandi, appreciate the encouragement !

What is surprising for me is how a thread like this unfolds while in process. One question leads to a challenge that leads to an idea unto some research over to a concept resulting in a refutation which leads to a defense of the word of God ! Very edifying for me to be a vessel for finding and sharing info.

The only "problem" is that ... while I may have thought I was almost "done" a lot earlier, the more I have researched, the more insights and vistas opened up ! A nice problem.

Here is the planned itinerary for the next few posts, an outline, (usually I simply seek to follow the Holy Spirit post by post).

Psalm 12

Excellent Neale - Littledale source
Michael Ayguan
An interesting point made by .. Doug Kutilek !
Oops, a problem in the writings of .. Doug Kutilek

And interweaved.

Accurately relating translation to interpretation
Various awkwardnesses of the "poor and needy" for ever
Kutilek vs. White vs Combs vs ...

This may change overnight, or over-hour, however I think you will find each point of interest. When involved in a study like this, I simply have the ideas at first, based on reading, then the posts have to be developed. For those who know inventory control, this is the JIT (Just-in-Time) concept of production.

Oh, one more point of interest. There is as excellent book that we discussed on these topics .. the one by Kent Brandenburg. Also the article by Peter Van Kleeck. Everyone should read them. Except .. I haven't read them yet

. (Small excepts on the web excepted, which may or may not be a major part of the Peter Van Kleeck paper and are a small part of Kent's book.)

Yep, I am looking forward to getting the material, most especially Kent's. However in a certain sense, I feel I can better dedicate, and better consecrate, the studies, by simply first developing the concepts from the research clearly and then, later .. comparing notes and references and ideas.

And I will also thank an opponent of the King James Bible, one who used to post on this very forum, for bringing forth the scaffolding harumphs and confused arguments and various nonsense diversions and lack of sense and false accusations that really spurred me to get much more involved in Psalm 12 -- to learn more about the beautiful verses. Quite often, what is meant for ill, God turns to good, when the love of the Lord Jesus Christ is in our hearts and we seek to do the will of God.

And I also appreciate that we have a forum where we can research formally and informally with support and counterpoint maintained on a high level.

Shalom
Steven

 

[Steven Avery]

Psalms: From Primitive and Mediaeval Writers - Neale & Littledale

---

Hi Folks,

An interesting book on the Psalms by John Mason Neale and Richard Frederick Littledale, involving rather incredible scholarship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mason_Neale
John Mason Neale (January 24, 1818 - August 6, 1866), was an English divine, scholar and hymn-writer.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HNgpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA364
Littledate, Richard Frederick (1833-1890), Anglican controversialist,

These two men wrote an unusual Commentary on the Psalms.

http://www.andrewespress.com/neale.html
A Commentary on the Psalms
http://books.google.com/books?id=B_U2AAAAMAAJ
A Commentary on the Psalms: From Primitive and Mediaeval Writers : and from the Various Office-books and Hymns of the Roman, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Gallican, Greek, Coptic, Armenian, and Syriac Rites - John Mason Neale, Richard Frederick Littledale

You can see some of the sources they referenced

http://books.google.com/books?id=CD77u9SRGx4C&pg=PA84
S Augustine, Michael Ayguan, Bruno of Aste, Cassiodorus, Balthazar Corderius, Dionysius the Carthusian, Gerhohus, Hilary, Lorinus, Ludolphus, Parez, Remigius of S. Germanus, Euthymius Zigabenus.

And the section describing their commentaries starts at p. 75.

Psalm 12:6-7 begins on p.180 (verse numbers offset by 1, our verse 5 counts as their v.5 & 6) and goes to p. 181. http://books.google.com/books?id=CD77u9SRGx4C&pg=PA180 You will see the Augustine Commentary from above given, also Ambrose Lorinus, Parez, Chrysostom and more, plus verse references.

And here is the text for verse 7.

Thou shalt keep them, O Lord : thou shalt preserve him from this generation for ever.

=====
COMMENTARY

Keep them: that is, not as the passage is generally taken, Keep or guard Thy people, but

Thou shalt keep, or make good, Thy words: and by so doing,
shalt preserve him--him, the needy, him, the poor--from this generation.

Thou shalt keep Thy word
, -- "Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and He shall nourish thee;"

Thy word,
"I will inform thee, and teach thee in the way wherein thou shalt go"

Thy word,
"Fear not, little flock ; it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom;"

and so, preserving him from this generation, shalt hereafter give him a portion with that happier generation, the general assembly of the First-born which are written in heaven. .

=====

We will look at this more shortly, this little commentary has had a surprisingly central role in the current debate, and at the very least it can be a springboard for studies.

Shalom,
Steven

 

[Steven Avery]

Michael Ayguan

---

Hi Folks,

From this book, we learn who is Michael Ayguan, rather impressively.

http://books.google.com/books?id=CD77u9SRGx4C&pg=PA81
A Commentary on the Psalms - Neale & Littledale

(11.) To my own mind the Commentary of Michael Ayguan. (+ 1416) is on the whole, the best of those that have been contributed to the treasury of the Church; though wanting the unction of Gerhohus and Dionysius, and the marvellous Scriptural knowledge of S. Augustine. To me it has been, as it were, a dear companion for the last fifteen years: during that period I have read it through three times, and each time with a higher admiration of its marvellous depth, richness, and beauty. While he draws unsparingly on the treasures of those who preceded him, more especially on S. Augustine, S. Jerome, Cassiodorus, S. Gregory, and Venerable Bede, he has much that is original,—surprisingly much, considering how many authors have devoted themselves to the same task. I employ the Lyons edition of 1673, a noble folio, of more than 1100 pages in closely printed double columns. The work long went under the title of that of the Auctor Incognitus: its writer being unknown. Michael Ayguan, a native of Bologna, was born about 1340, and entered at an early age into the Carmelite Order, of which he subsequently became General. In the Great Schism he was a strenuous supporter of the party of Urban VI., and, after a long and laborious life, died in the place of his birth, Dec. 1, 1416. Fully two-ninths of the following pages are derived, directly and indirectly, from this great work.

Charles Spurgeon references this Commentary some and Neale and Littledale are probably our one main source for English translation of the Latin work of Ayguan today.

I always get a bit puzzled and concerned when names are bandied about that we do not recognize. (As could happen when Michael Ayguan was quoted on Psalm 12.) Now we know who is Michael Ayguan, the name has a background. And here we have one of the very top historical commentators on the Psalms, and who even recognizes his name ? Yet modern commentators get involved in the most arcane and oddball theories, without the base of historic writer commentaries and history.

Next we will try to connect a couple of dots. Try to bear with, dear reader. The hope, the goal, is to make the Psalm commentary history come alive, we don't just need dry facts, we need to sense the life and heart of the men who shared the word of God. (This aspect is something I have learned studying the Johannine Comma and I believe it has wide application.)

Shaom,
Steven Avery