Psalm 12 - thou shalt keep them ... thou shalt preserve them

Steven Avery

Administrator
WIP

Super-thread!

AV1611
Psalm 12:7 - the Promise of Preservation
https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270

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Facebook and Puritanboard - Steve Rafalsky, Peter van Kleeck
steven.avery.7568/posts
/3546835542019285

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Facebook - Psalm 12 - Bryan Ross
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...956476647.4748.100000566292605&type=3&theater

Facebook - Psalm 12 - Warfield inerrancy - Jack McElroy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pur...t_id=1570317339726816&comment_tracking={tn:R}

Facebook - Psalm 12 - Textus Receptus Academy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...k/583483825830817/?comment_id=584284685750731

Facebook - King James Bible / Textus Receptus
https://www.facebook.com/groups/KJBTR/permalink/10152992330674691/

PBF
organize and move out of private section - has Psalm 12 super-thread material
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/albert-hembd-and-trinity-bustria-on-facebook.535/

FEBC
https://www.febc.edu.sg/v15/article/def_Gods_promise_to_preserve

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Steven Avery

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Facebook
NT Textual Criticism
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTextualCriticism/permalink/647273248693012/

Add Psalm 12

Grammar and the Textual Analysis History

Here are a few of many examples of verses where the Greek or Hebrew grammar battleground is a major question in translational discussions:

1 John 5:20 (AV)
And we know that the Son of God is come,
and hath given us an understanding,
that we may know him that is true,
and we are in him that is true,
even in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God, and eternal life.
.
What is the "this"? You can see other translations try to answer that for you, and there are at least 3 alternative answers.
.
Here are the Granville Sharp Rule main two battleground grammatical-translational verses today (earlier ones included Ephesians 5:5):
.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
.
Even the famous question of "faith in Christ" and "faith of Christ" has a grammatical battleground element.
Likely, dozens of examples could be given.
=================================
Now this forum emphasizes textual issues.
So, how about grammatical components being a major factor in the historical debate on Bible verses from the perspective of which Bible text is autographic?
Included is the factor of whether the word of God would have grammatical manglings, where evangelicals may differ from liberals and skeptics.
Four examples quickly leap to mind.
.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.
The Timothy verse has a fascinating component that a hymn theory was fabricated in order to seek to bypass the grammatical problem. The issues swirl around the awkward relative pronoun (two textual possibilities there, as alternatives to the TR text ) and thus an appropriate gender-match subject.
.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
There are at least two grammatical issues, the more studied one being the grammatical mismatch without the heavenly witnesses. Plenty of additional style and context "internal" issues too.
.
Mark 7:19
Because it entereth not into his heart,
but into the belly,
and goeth out into the draught,
purging all meats?
.
Two variants, one of which virtually forces creative translation.
.
Mark 16:8
And they went out quickly,
and fled from the sepulchre;
for they trembled and were amazed:
neither said they any thing to any man;
for they were afraid.
Whether the grammar of the verse is a sensible Greek sentence to end a book, or if it calls for continuing text.

=================================

Key Question:
What other significant verses can you suggest where the grammar is an integral part of the textual variant debate?
Secondary:
And do we find the four above fascinating and important discussions?

=================================

Sidenote:
Probably the most significant example in the OT of an interlink between grammar and text determination is:

Psalms 22:16
For dogs have compassed me:
the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet.

=================================

Note:
I trying not to consider issues that are more style and textual flow, like you have with the Pericope Adulterae. Although that line may be at times thin.
Steven Avery
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
complementary scriptures to Psalm 12:6-7



Hi Folks,

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

It is helpful to simply show some of the complementary verses.
The Bible is consistent -- the Word of our God stands forever.

Psalm 119:89.
Forever, O LORD,
thy word is settled in heaven.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple,
and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Psalms 18:31
As for God, his way is perfect:
the word of the LORD is tried:
he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
For who is God save the LORD?
or who is a rock save our God?

Psalm 78 5-7
For he established a testimony in Jacob,
and appointed a law in Israel,
which he commanded our fathers,
that they should make them known to their children:
That the generation to come might know them,
even the children which should be born;
who should arise and declare them to their children:
That they might set their hope in God,
and not forget the works of God,
but keep his commandments:

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure:
he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth,
the flower fadeth:
but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
My spirit that is upon thee,
and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
shall not depart out of thy mouth,
nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed,
saith the LORD,
from henceforth and for ever.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but my words shall not pass away. (also Luke 12:33)

John 10:35
If he called them gods,
unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;

1Peter 1:23-25
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass
The word of the Lord endureth for ever
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Psalm 12 - contrast - God's word with lips of men



Hi Folks,

Above we we were discussing the harmony of the promise of scripture preservation in Psalm 12 with the consistent theme within the Bible.

Also very helpful is to discuss verse 7 within the Psalm chapter. So much is written about the context of verse 7, often only referring to one or two verses earlier. This can be sound, however it is also very helpful to read and consider the full Psalm.

Notice that Psalm 12 seven times refers to the false lips of the children of men. And then, after speaking of God's judgment against the vain and prideful lips of the children of men, the psalmist shows the contrast with the purified as silver words of the LORD !

Psalm 12
Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth;
for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
They speak vanity every one with his neighbour:
with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips,
and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail;
our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy,
now will I arise, saith the LORD;
I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
The wicked walk on every side,
when the vilest men are exalted.

The full context of the chapter is clear in the contrast of the pure words of God with the vain proud, flattering lips of vile men - the principle theme of the Psalm. And God supplies his pure words to the remnant, the 'godly man' (v.1) words to lift the 'poor and needy' (v.5), words that his servants love. (Psalm 119:140). The 'poor and needy' that are freed from oppression are the godly whom hear and receive the pure, refined as silver, words of God. This purified silver is kept and preserved, available to all generations.

And then, in contrast to the natural lifting up and contrast with the "words of the LORD" - to try to apply verse seven as to the poor and needy and not to the words of God, you would have to create a whole new class of people.

-- the silver, purified, kept and preserved poor and needy (many who are oppressed, and receive injustice, are themselves not even believers).

And the modernist attempt would take these attributes of purity and refinement as silver away from the words of God. Yet any simple and clear reading of the Psalm shows that the Psalm compares the words of flattering and fleeting wicked men with God's eternal and preserved and pure words.

Now, because God's words are preserved, many who receive and keep those words (e.g. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego) will be preserved, even in fire. This is a result of their dedication to God's pure words. Personally, I do not see any difficulty in the auxiliary linked understanding of Psalm 12 being the preservation of those faithful to God's pure words. Even a bit of deliberate dual meaning in the Psalm is possible, and the historic Jewish understanding included both aspects. Whether or not one allows for the auxiliary interpretation, it is clear that the primary and forceful and clear and majestic meaning of Psalm 12:7 is the preservation of God's words.

Shalom,
Steven
 

Steven Avery

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Quote:


Originally Posted by Just_A_Thought View Post

God DID preserve His word but man has taken it out of context. God's words are true words but if I translate it or copie it I can mess it up. It may not be done on purpose but I am far from perfect! (Maybe this is the only thing you wil agree with me on
wink.gif
) I can mess it up while meaning well.
Just_A_Thought, I sincerely pray you too will discover the word which is settled in heaven, which shall not pass away, which shall stand forever, which is preserved by the Almighty God, and is in our possession today in the King James Bible.

Please take the time to read each verse below and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart through God’s word.
Ps 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Ps 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Ps 119:25 DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

Ps 119:28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

Ps 119:38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

Ps 119:41 VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

Ps 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Ps 119:43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

Ps 119:49 ZAIN. Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.

Ps 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Ps 119:57 CHETH. Thou art my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words.

Ps 119:58 I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.

Ps 119:65 TETH. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Ps 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

Ps 119:74
They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

Ps 119:76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.

Ps 119:81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Ps 119:82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?

Ps 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Ps 119:90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

Ps 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

Ps 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Ps 119:107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Ps 119:114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

Ps 119:116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Ps 119:123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.

Ps 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Ps 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

Ps 119:139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.

Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Ps 119:147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.

Ps 119:148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

Ps 119:154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.

Ps 119:158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

Ps 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Ps 119:161 SCHIN. Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

Ps 119:162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

Ps 119:169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

Ps 119:170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

Ps 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
May His preserved, kept, settle, inspired, infallible, and perfect written word increase your faith.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).
 

Steven Avery

Administrator


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Hi Folks,


Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

Gill is wrong about alot of things... but you should consider his skill with the hebrew language. Gill is not the only hebrew expert that makes the case verse 7 can not be associated with verse 6.
However John Gill's case in this instance is based on one (somewhat superficial) point only,

"Not the words before mentioned, as Aben Ezra explains it, for the affix is masculine and not feminine"

I'm quite sure that John Gill was well aware that Aben Ezra was well aware of grammatical gender
smile.gif
. So he should have thought a bit more deeply before being dismissive.

Overall this is a very thin reed of rejection and Thomas Strouse and John Hinton have gone into probably the most depth on the grammatical issues, giving multiple reasons, grammatical and contextual, why the gender is masculine and not controlling the translation into the poor rather than the words. And, significantly, giving analagous verse examples, even involving the words of God. Have you read carefully their analyses ? Do you have cogent responses for their and our consideration ?

The fact that John Gill gave a superficial analysis on this verse does not negate his overall expertise. Gill is to be respected and considered in exegesis and he is generally miles above the modernists in his understanding of the word of God, including the Biblical languages and grammar.

However in this case .. he simply erred.

And you can see by simply reading his section that he did not really tangle with the issues.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

I don't think Gill was superficially nothing. I disagree strong on many many things Gill wrote but he was never superficial.
98% of the time Gill was not superficial in what he wrote, he was far more thorough than most commentators. A number of times he slips up. Luke 3:36 is a good example of where he took a strange, unbalanced stance (as I recall) and with a spot of effort I could probably give a number of examples. An expert like Gill would know for sure that grammatical gender agreement is not anything like an iron-clad controlling factor in complex verses. John Gill may have thought deeply on this verse, however he wrote superficially.

Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

I have never read Hinton or Strouse. If you will supply the links, I'll read through them.
Thomas Strouse and John Hinton sections I will try to give you when I am home tonight. They actually emphasize different yet complementary aspects of the grammar.
btw, My view of the writings of Daniel Wallace on Bible issues is quite low and frequently his 'logic' is abysmal. He appears to be controlled by forces that make him fight the purity of the word of God, whether it is "strain at a gnat" or the resurrection account of the Lord Jesus Christ in Mark or other. If you want to give his writing to show a grammatical factoid, fine, however beyond that .... expect very, very little.

Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

It should be noted that the greek texts of Psalm 12 attest to verse 7 is in reference to verse 5..
With its own oddball language, preserving "us". Thus of virtually no evidentiary value whatsoever.

Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

The issue is that you will not agree that Gill's comments are a possibility... because.... if they are then you lose what hold you have on what you consider preservation.
This is the ho-hum circularity argument reduxified. Actually I came to my understanding of the purity of the King James Bible precisely by a process that included studying the details of many verses like Psalm 12. Leaving my previous positions when I saw how excellent was the majestic text and scholarship. btw, I wrote a little post upthread highlighting the chapter contextual issues that may be helpful.
In the not-to-distant past I used to allow for a secondary meaning of preserving of people, the more I study and understand the verse, the more I question whether that is really sensible at all, except pehaps in a midrashic strectch. (See my post above for the one main reason why.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

Will you admit that it is possible that the scripture in verse 7 is talking about the poor?
See right above.
(I generally write my dialogue posts while doing a vertical read.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

I believe the Word of God endureth forever. Every Word of God is true and lives forever. That does not mean that it lives in the pages of some complete book called the KJV. I've never read that in the bible anywhere.
"the bible" ?
So please share with us what is "the bible" that you read or know of (if it is in a foreign or difficult or archaic language) where the "Word of God endureth forever".
Shalom,
Steven
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Hi Folks,



Quote:


Originally Posted by llthomasjr

I would like for someone to tell me why Mar 14:7, John 12:8, and Mat 26:11 does not mean that poor extend through all generations?
Are the poor and the needy (you left them out) "as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times". Is that your understanding of the Biblical teaching ?

Are they preserved "from this generation for ever" unto eternal life with the Lord Jesus Christ ? Are some "preserved" unto damnation and separation from God ? Would that be Biblical preservation ? Is each individual and generation passing away, to be replaced with new individuals and generations.

Now, can you allow that the words of God could be purified and preserved from this generation for ever ? Endureth forever. It looks above that you agree that this is true Bible, yet are you adamant that this is not the teaching of Psalm 12 ? Very curious. While you have to do an exegetical flying leap to try to convince someone that God's "preservation" and purification is only the poor (and please don't ferget the needy, they should not be cast aside for the poor) not the words of God.

Simply because John Gill or Daniel Wallace tells you there is a grammatical gender issue, for that reason you are sure that the word of God is not preserved in Psalm 12 ? Even after looking at the whole verse in context (see page 1 of this thread). Or are you concerned that the King James Bible might have this true and right and that is what a smidgen discomfiting ?

Now, you say you believe the word of God is preserved, taught elsewhere in the Bible. What are your favorite verses for teaching your view that the word of God "endureth forever" and "lives forever" ? Please share with us the source of this belief and how you express it from the word of God.

And how do you know the verses you share are themselves pure -- if you do not recognize the pure Bible anywhere in the world today ? Could they be mistranslations or redactions or interpolations or other smasheroos ?
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Quite a discussion going here....on the very topic I am interested in and searching for clarity. Here is a link I came across to the "genius of ambiguity" argument (Van Kleeck), as well as a link to the Strouse article. Strouse makes an excellent case for verse 7 teaching the preservation of Scripture. I really like Strouse. Where can I find more of his teachings?
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns88.html
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/strouse-psalm127.html
Yet Van Kleeck makes a point worthy of consideration.
Shalom,
Tandi
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
John Hinton, complementary to Thomas Strouse



Hi Folks,


Quote:


Originally Posted by Tandi

..the "genius of ambiguity" argument (Van Kleeck), as well as a link to the Strouse article. Strouse makes an excellent case for verse 7 teaching the preservation of Scripture....
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns88.html
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/strouse-psalm127.html
Yet Van Kleeck makes a point worthy of consideration.
And here are the John Hinton articles, hosted on this very website !

http://av1611.com/kjbp/ridiculous-kj...12-Part-1.html
Ridiculous KJV Bible Corrections: Psalm 12, Part 1

http://av1611.com/kjbp/ridiculous-kj...2-verse-7.html
Psalm 12 Part 2, verse 7

I used to think that maybe the verse could be properly seen with a dual application, 'ambiguous'. However when you simply read the full chapter (something that is rare in modernist exegesis, in the journal articles today they appear loath to even give the words of a verse ! much less a chapter or section) the context being the contrast of the purified as silver pure words of God and the vanity, flattering lips, double heart and proud tongue rings all through the section.

(please go to page one :

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...89&postcount=8
Psalm 12 - contrast - God's word with lips of men

Also for the context of the NT as a whole.

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...09&postcount=5
complementary scriptures to Psalm 12:6-7 )

While there had definitely been a historical split on the understanding of the verse, with some folks normally quite good supporting the poor understanding, I really believe that is a bit of a twig and forest thing. They got so enmeshed in the couple of verses (and on that their grammatical understanding is incomplete .. thank you Thomas and John) that they missed the simplicity and power and clarity of the word of God).

Any interpretation of the poor and needy being those preserved is only a minor auxiliary aspect of the majesty and power and purity of the word of God.

Shalom,
Steven
 

Arikel88

New member
I sing psalm when I have A chance I the evenings and paslm 12 is one of my favorites it is good to sng them.
 
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