S. Franklin Logsdon - the correction of a David Cloud error on his excellent testimony

Steven Avery


The major CARM post #17 (which is now below) was deleted, which is irrelevant, possibly they did not like the fact that I mentioned the Facebook posting history (even without a url). The information is important to have a reasonably permanent place. Ken Matto has superbly corrected his page which is using the David Cloud material, when this information was shared with Ken, and no longer has Logsdon accusing Dewey Lockman of only doing it for the money. (Google search shows eight other places that have the David Cloud error.)


We started with this:

David Cloud's factual errors and inconsistencies - Post #13

Steven Avery CARM said:
As for David Cloud, I also can attest that he can be difficult on the issue of making correction. In the S. Franklin Logsdon material he had one error that was pointed out here, and it was significant, and I tried to get him to accept correction. An interesting FYI: The thread is not longer on CARM, from June 2013, however I am pretty sure that it was Crispus who brought this out, and I thanked him at the time. The response from David Cloud was disappointing, and I understand that he gets a lot of bogus flak for his writing and thus can be defensive, so I tried to document the issue very clearly and cordially. Nonetheless, he circled horses, unresponsively.
Beloved Daughter said:
Nope. There is a similarity of name and concern, that that is all. I never saw the sermonindex thing, and have no idea what was the discussion with Crispy and David Cloud in 2011, written about in early 2012. The topic is unstated.

My discussion began here in 2013, Crispus last posted in June, 2014, on this thread in July, 2013 the incident was discussed.

Steven Avery quoting from CARM said:
Any posters who engage in iron sharpeneth dialog (e.g. Crispus and Shoonra and bluefalcon and James Snapp frequently, among AV contra posters who post in this section) are more than welcome to go over earlier threads and discussions, preferably by a proper url and even bumping the thread.

As an example, Crispus and I explored a David Cloud misrepresentation, and I ended up agreeing that there was a misrepresentation, and sharing with other AV defenders. In an iron sharpeneth discussion, each issue takes a careful review, on a level playing field, majors and minors both.
... I appreciated then and now that Crispus found the error, and that he made a point that it should be brought to Cloud, which I did. The specific issue was how David Cloud quoted the tape from S. Franklin Logsdon with the phrase "he did it for the money" referring to Dewey Lockman. I've written about it on Facebook.

Facebook - King James Bible Debate - S. Franklin Logsdon discussion - Nov, 2015

Facebook - PureBible - S. Franklin Logsdon discussion - Aug, 2015 and March, 2016

Facebook said:
Another point is simple and made by Will. If the Frank Logsdon is given directly in tune with what he said, it is powerful any touches hearts. Any significant exaggeration, including cofounder, even though close and catchy, allows the contra diversion response. Make the emphasis what was spoken by Frank Logsdon, without the David Cloud misquote. Another point about properly representing those deceased is that I found that a real concern with one very well-known AV defender. It has flown under the debate radar, however for me it is a biggie. I've seen contras ignorantly rail against John Burgon and the learned me of 1611 and the Reformation Bible experts of the 1500s however with the pure Bible in hand we have a greater responsibility to keep our words pure, measured, accurate and holy, even when sharp.
On that forum, Jack McElroy placed a couple of solid comments, one begins:

Facebook said:
You know Steven Avery I never thought Dewey Lockman "did it for the money." I just thought he was a deceived business guy. Lots of major Christian endeavors are funded by successful businessmen. That doesn't mean they are always the Lord's will but I think their intentions are good. ...
In August, 2015, I wrote about it on my PureBible forum on Facebook with more detail. (And I will bump the thread up to be the active thread. It is an open forum, people do not have to join to read it. Note: PureBible is a research forum, not a debate forum. Thus members are almost all cordial to the TR and AV positions. There are many Facebook debate forums that discuss the Bible issues, I am not involved in hosting or moderating any of them.)

Ok, here is the most germane extract section:

Facebook said:
David Cloud made a bad error (although hardly anybody caught it till a CARM thread which is now poofed.) The thread was "theory of Byzantine textual evolution" in 2013 and one contra caught it, and I brought it to Cloud, and he was totally irresponsible.

You can see the Cloud blunder in the afaik otherwise accurate page here:


"he was just a business man; he did it for money;"

Listen to the tape. He does not say that. I'm traveling right now, so it is a bit more difficult for me to access my Cloud correspondence (which has the minute mark, the actual text, the Cloud bluster.)

Ok, here is the detail of what is on the tape:
(url to King James Bible Debate thread)

"He's not a translator; he's not schooled in language or anything. He's just a business man; he did the promoting. He had the money; he did the promoting. So I, I said...he did it conscientiously; he wanted it absolutely right and he thought it was right."

There is a big difference between "He had the money" and "he did it for money". Cloud absolutely refused to make the correction and started ranting at me for pointing this out. Before this, I had met David Cloud once, in Elmont, Long Isaland at a tent meeting, and had solid respect for the gentleman.
And I include the details because it is important, and David Cloud could still simply make the correction, better late than never. And, in fact, I will write to Ken Matto tonight, and ask him to make the correction on scionofzion (he will likely want to at least listen to the tape and make sure there is a need for the correction.)

Steven Avery