S. Franklin Logsdon - the correction of a David Cloud error on his excellent testimony

Steven Avery

Administrator
The major CARM post #17 (which is now below) was deleted, which is irrelevant, possibly they did not like the fact that I mentioned the Facebook posting history (even without a url). The information is important to have a reasonably permanent place. Ken Matto has superbly corrected his page which is using the David Cloud material, when this information was shared with Ken, and no longer has Logsdon accusing Dewey Lockman of only doing it for the money. (Google search shows eight other places that have the David Cloud error.)

FROM THE NASV TO THE KJV TESTIMONY OF A COMMITTEE MEMBER FOR THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION

http://www.scionofzion.com/logsdon.htm

We started with this:

CARM -David Cloud's factual errors and inconsistencies - Post #13

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...onsistencies&p=7734740&viewfull=1#post7734740

Steven Avery CARM said:
As for David Cloud, I also can attest that he can be difficult on the issue of making correction. In the S. Franklin Logsdon material he had one error that was pointed out here, and it was significant, and I tried to get him to accept correction. An interesting FYI: The thread is not longer on CARM, from June 2013, however I am pretty sure that it was Crispus who brought this out, and I thanked him at the time. The response from David Cloud was disappointing, and I understand that he gets a lot of bogus flak for his writing and thus can be defensive, so I tried to document the issue very clearly and cordially. Nonetheless, he circled horses, unresponsively.
Beloved Daughter said:
Nope. There is a similarity of name and concern, that that is all. I never saw the sermonindex thing, and have no idea what was the discussion with Crispy and David Cloud in 2011, written about in early 2012. The topic is unstated.

My discussion began here in 2013, Crispus last posted in June, 2014, on this thread in July, 2013 the incident was discussed.


Steven Avery quoting from CARM said:
Any posters who engage in iron sharpeneth dialog (e.g. Crispus and Shoonra and bluefalcon and James Snapp frequently, among AV contra posters who post in this section) are more than welcome to go over earlier threads and discussions, preferably by a proper url and even bumping the thread.

As an example, Crispus and I explored a David Cloud misrepresentation, and I ended up agreeing that there was a misrepresentation, and sharing with other AV defenders. In an iron sharpeneth discussion, each issue takes a careful review, on a level playing field, majors and minors both.
... I appreciated then and now that Crispus found the error, and that he made a point that it should be brought to Cloud, which I did. The specific issue was how David Cloud quoted the tape from S. Franklin Logsdon with the phrase "he did it for the money" referring to Dewey Lockman. I've written about it on Facebook.

Facebook - King James Bible Debate - S. Franklin Logsdon discussion - Nov, 2015

https://www.facebook.com/groups/212...=10152504501446693&offset=0&total_comments=13

Facebook - PureBible - S. Franklin Logsdon discussion - Aug, 2015 and March, 2016
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/850374711721086/

Facebook said:
Another point is simple and made by Will. If the Frank Logsdon is given directly in tune with what he said, it is powerful any touches hearts. Any significant exaggeration, including cofounder, even though close and catchy, allows the contra diversion response. Make the emphasis what was spoken by Frank Logsdon, without the David Cloud misquote. Another point about properly representing those deceased is that I found that a real concern with one very well-known AV defender. It has flown under the debate radar, however for me it is a biggie. I've seen contras ignorantly rail against John Burgon and the learned me of 1611 and the Reformation Bible experts of the 1500s however with the pure Bible in hand we have a greater responsibility to keep our words pure, measured, accurate and holy, even when sharp.
On that forum, Jack McElroy placed a couple of solid comments, one begins:

Facebook said:
You know Steven Avery I never thought Dewey Lockman "did it for the money." I just thought he was a deceived business guy. Lots of major Christian endeavors are funded by successful businessmen. That doesn't mean they are always the Lord's will but I think their intentions are good. ...
In August, 2015, I wrote about it on my PureBible forum on Facebook with more detail. (And I will bump the thread up to be the active thread. It is an open forum, people do not have to join to read it. Note: PureBible is a research forum, not a debate forum. Thus members are almost all cordial to the TR and AV positions. There are many Facebook debate forums that discuss the Bible issues, I am not involved in hosting or moderating any of them.)

Ok, here is the most germane extract section:


Facebook said:
David Cloud made a bad error (although hardly anybody caught it till a CARM thread which is now poofed.) The thread was "theory of Byzantine textual evolution" in 2013 and one contra caught it, and I brought it to Cloud, and he was totally irresponsible.

You can see the Cloud blunder in the afaik otherwise accurate page here:

FROM THE NASV TO THE KJV TESTIMONY OF A COMMITTEE MEMBER FOR THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION

http://www.scionofzion.com/logsdon.htm

"he was just a business man; he did it for money;"

Listen to the tape. He does not say that. I'm traveling right now, so it is a bit more difficult for me to access my Cloud correspondence (which has the minute mark, the actual text, the Cloud bluster.)

Ok, here is the detail of what is on the tape:
(url to King James Bible Debate thread)

"He's not a translator; he's not schooled in language or anything. He's just a business man; he did the promoting. He had the money; he did the promoting. So I, I said...he did it conscientiously; he wanted it absolutely right and he thought it was right."

There is a big difference between "He had the money" and "he did it for money". Cloud absolutely refused to make the correction and started ranting at me for pointing this out. Before this, I had met David Cloud once, in Elmont, Long Isaland at a tent meeting, and had solid respect for the gentleman.
And I include the details because it is important, and David Cloud could still simply make the correction, better late than never. And, in fact, I will write to Ken Matto tonight, and ask him to make the correction on scionofzion (he will likely want to at least listen to the tape and make sure there is a need for the correction.)

Steven Avery


Facebook
Moderated King James Bible - Sept 2014
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Mod...id=705144829568564&offset=0&total_comments=20
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
BVDB - 2020
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bibleversiondiscussionboard/logsdon-t5215.html#p80537

Euthymius actually did catch the honesty and careful wording in the Frank Logsdon tape, and the tricky parsed language of the Lockman Foundation response.

Clearly, Riplinger et al. muddied the water by inflating the tape to claims never made by Frank Logsdon.

Even David Cloud did something similar in a section about doing it for the money. Logsdon was very respectful in his quote, and David Cloud twisted it into a rather horrendous accusation (against Dewey Lockman). And I wrote Cloud, very respectfully, all details explained, since I agreed with most of his article, but he would not budge. My view of his integrity quotient went down. Actually, I was saddened by his approach. (Well, I get so many complaints .. blah blah.)

And I did meet David Cloud once years earlier in an outdoor tent preaching in Elmont, Nassau, NY.
Maybe he would have received the correction if given in person.

===================

On the Foreward, if I remember Logsdon said he recognized his words, not that he wrote the final foreward verbatim, word for word. So maybe the Lockman Foundation changed it a little bit, and then disclaimed his initial authorship. That is my conjecture, since their response was very parsed and tricky.

Afawk, everything Logsdon said was accurate. (Some others, like Riplinger, mangled what he said.)

Clearly, modern version Westcott-Hort recension pushers want to find tacky ways to lessen his testimony. Confirmation bias is a wonderful psycho-babble attempt.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Facebook - 2020 - King James Bible Debate
https://www.facebook.com/groups/21209666692/permalink/10158526207136693/

==============================

Start at 33:45 for NASV testimony

Frank S. Logsdon
https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=121091938230

Also

https://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/logsdon-repudiates-nasb.html
Frank Logsdon Repudiates the NASB
Frank Logsdon was asked two questions about the Bible version issue and used the occasion to explain why he finally rejected the Critical Text and repented of his involvement in the creation of the New American Standard Version in 1960. Here is an audio recording of the lecture

==============================

Franklin Logsdon to Cecil Carter - 1977
http://www.maranath.ca//franklinlogsdon.htm

==============================

David Cloud - has money error, otherwise good, discusses Lockman word-parsing note
https://web.archive.org/web/20080115063836/http://www.wayoflife.org/articles/logsdon2.htm
THE TRUTH ABOUT FRANK LOGSDON’S
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NASV

We don't know the motive for this communication from the Lockman Foundation; apparently they are giving information based on their resources at hand. Obviously they don't have all the facts. This was admitted to me by a translator who represents the Lockman Foundation and the New American Standard Version. In an e-mail message to me dated February 16, 1996, Dr. Don Wilkins said, "Perhaps the truth of the whole matter is that none of us has all the facts about the situation."

I have three witnesses to Logsdon's involvement with the NASV that would stand up in a court of law: First, there is Logsdon's own spoken testimony which we have on audio cassette. This has been authenticated by Christians who knew him. Second, we know that Logsdon's widow in Wheaton, Illinois, has authenticated his testimony in regard to the NASV. Third, we have a copy of a letter from Logsdon to Cecil Carter of Prince George, British Columbia, June 9, 1977. I have known Brother Carter for many years. He is a faithful elder in a Brethren assembly and a respected member of his community.

Part of the problem has been caused by some who have made claims for Logsdon which he did not himself make. Note that Logsdon never said that he actually worked on the NASV or the Amplified Bible translation or that he was an actual employee of the Lockman Foundation. He did not claim to be "co-founder" of the NASV. He said he was a friend of Lockman and as such was invited to come out to California and help launch the venture. According to his own testimony and that of his widow, that is precisely what he did. Logsdon was a highly respected Bible teacher and author, and there is certainly no reason why he would have lied about these matters. He had nothing to gain thereby. To the contrary, he was considered a nut by many of his peers for taking a stand against the modern versions.

==============================

Ken Matto - Scion of Zion
https://www.scionofzion.com/logsdon.htm

==============================

David L. Brown - from 1992 David Cloud - has money error
http://logosresourcepages.org/Versions/logsdon.htm

==============================

From The NASV To The KJV
S. Frank Logsdon
Testimony Of A Committee Member For The New American Standard Version
http://logosresourcepages.org/Versions/logsdon.htm

==============================

Youtube

===============================

Why we use the King James version
by Dr. Frank Logsdon
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/apologetics/whyweuse.shtml

===============================

Library Thing - Franklin Logsdon
http://www.librarything.com/author/logsdonsfranklin

===============================

Psalm 119
http://www.baptistbiblebelievers.com/OtherBookTitles/VictoryLifeinPsalm119bySFranklinLogsdon.aspx

===============================

Example of attack post - this one has one or two posts I put in Comments

IFB Pastor Bob Gray, Sr. Peddles Lie About New American Standard Bible
Bruce Gerencser
https://brucegerencser.net/2020/07/bob-gray-peddles-lie-about-new-american-standard-bible/
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Good Notes Sent From Robert Vaughn

While searching online re Frank Logsdon, I noticed your thread "S. Franklin Logsdon - the correction of a David Cloud error on his excellent testimony," and thought you would be interested in the newspaper article I am attaching.

A friend recently sent me a link to an audio file of Logsdon's repudiation of the New American Standard translation. I suppose Logsdon had never been on my radar before. Since then I have been doing some research, and have found it very intriguing. Lots of conflicting information out there! Here are a couple I noticed.

The audio recording of Franklin Logsdon repudiating the NASB sometimes gets a date of 1973. It is not possible that this was recorded before January 11, 1974 -- the day Dewey Lockman died. Frank Logsdon mentions the death of Dewey Lockman in his talk, so it had to be after recorded after that.

What is called an official response of the Lockman Foundation is actually an e-mail that a secretary (maybe a high level one?) sent in response to an inquiry by KJV detractor Gary R. Hudson. (Maybe they adopted it as their official response?) In this "official response" it says Frank Logsdon moved to Florida in 1974. He actually moved to Largo, Florida in 1958, as the attached article mentions. As far as I can tell through checking newspaper announcements of his Bible conferences, he never moved away from there. (It could be possible he moved away briefly, but not likely.) He and his wife are buried in Largo.

The attachment I am sending is from the Tampa Bay Times, Saturday, June 21,1958, page 42. Of course, as a newspaper article, it is subject to possible errors in specific details, but the general tenor is clear -- Logsdon was involved with Dewey Lockman in some way starting and promoting the Amplified Bible.

After reading the thread at the PBF, I thought you might be interested in this.

Blessings,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com
For ask now of the days that are past...
http://oldredland.blogspot.com
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


========================

(continues)
I mentioned that the official response of the Lockman Foundation is an e-mail that a secretary sent in response to an inquiry by anti-KJVO Gary R. Hudson, which Hudson has as his receiving in 2000. On further reflection, I tentatively retract this, since perhaps the Lockman Foundation had officially adopted this statement, and the secretary just sent it to him by e-mail.

I find it odd that a major publisher like the Lockman Foundation would make the common mistake of calling the Foreword a "Forward" instead -- "nor did he write the forward of the NASB," according to the transcription on James White Alpha Omega web site.

Thanks again!
Robert Vaughn
1617882004718.png
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Thanks!

Above I did not go into all the elements. If I remember, it was not even a Foreward at issue, per Franklin Logsdon, but the Preface. The Lockman letter is generally word-parsing deception. Maybe I will go into that more later.

Here it is done by Windill Gillis. For now, I will just extract the chart.

Hidden Bible Truths in Plain Truth (2019)
Windill Gillis
https://books.google.com/books?id=xE2FDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT108
p. 106-111
Gillis is apparently a supporter of William Branham, however that has no effect on this research.

1617883069829.png
 
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R.L. Vaughn

New member
There was an article on Way of Life by David Cloud called "Did Frank Logsdon Help Organize the New American Standard Version?" It seems it is no longer on the site (at least I can't find it). Nevertheless, in it he mentions a letter to which he had access, dated June 9, 1977, from S. Franklin Logsdon to Cecil Carter. There Logsdon gives a little more detail, in writing that what was used as the foreword or preface was taken from the feasibility report. Logsdon did the feasibility report. So while this probably never appeared over his name in the New American Standard, it was nevertheless something he had written.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
A Letter From S. Franklin Logsdon

Received June 9, 1977

My dear Brother Carter:

Your letter of June 2 has just reached me, and since I will be leaving in a few hours for a long northern itinerary, I will be unable to write you in any detail.

As an honorary member of the Lockman Foundation, producers of the AMPLIFIED NEW TESTAMENT and the NEW AMERICAN STANDARD, I was invited to California back in the fifties to do a feasibility on utilizing the copyright of the 1901 which was as loose as a fumbled football. I was delighted and went.

When it was decided to proceed with a revised publication, I assisted Mr. Lockman in interviewing a few of the men who served as "translators" (See enclosure). What was finally used as the Foreword was taken from the feasibility report written before the actural (sic) work had begun. Apart from this I had little to do with its production. Incidentally, you CANNOT get a list of the names of the "translators." Forbidden!

I received #7 of the Deluxe copies, but did not for years even look inside it. It was too cumberson to carry with me on the road. When questions began to reach me, at first I was quite offended. however, in attempting to answer, I began to sense that something was not right about the NASV. Upon investigation, I wrote my very dear friend, Mr. Lockman, explaining that I was forced to renounce all attachment to the NASV.

Even if I had the time to more definitely deal with the matter in this communication, I could not add much to what Dr. Fuller has in his books, copies of which you possess. I can aver that the project was produced by thoroughly sincere men who had the best of intentions. The product, however, is grievous to my heart and helps to complicate matters in these already troublous times. God bless you as you press the battle!

Sincerely in Him,
S. Franklin Logsdon

You can find some on this by putting in a phrase like "attempting to answer, I began to sense that something" into Google.
 

R.L. Vaughn

New member
The Lockman letter is generally word-parsing deception. Maybe I will go into that more later.
“Dr. S. Franklin Logsdon was acquainted with Dewey Lockman, president of The Lockman Foundation, prior to Mr. Lockman’s death in 1974.”

Is is just me? This sentence does not look like something that should be in a well-thought official statement of a major publisher. What does it even mean? When else would Logsdon have known Lockman, after his death?!!!
 

R.L. Vaughn

New member
Good Notes Sent From Robert Vaughn



(continues)

View attachment 770
I need to make a correction on the source. I gave page 42 of the Tampa Bay Times, which is how Newspapers.com had this labeled. However, the actual name on the newspaper is St. Petersburg Times, and it is on page 10, section D. Not sure why it is that way in Newspapers.com. Probably two papers that merged and they have it digitally under one name. Nevertheless, the correct citation should be St. Petersburg Times, Saturday, June 21, 1958, page 10, section D.

Sorry for that confusion. Thanks.
 

R.L. Vaughn

New member
I have not yet posted this anywhere, but it is relevant to this thread, so I am posting here for the first time. I contacted the Lockman Foundation with some specific questions about Lockman, Logsdon, etc. They did not directly answer the questions, but sent this in an e-mail:

Here is our official statement regarding Mr. Logsdon:

Logsdon was not a co-founder of the NASB, nor was he a translator. We don't know why anything he says would be relevant to the NASB. The NASB stands on its own merits, apart from any individual, as an accurate and trusted translation.
The Lockman Foundation strictly adheres to the fourfold aim that guides all of its translation work:

These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
They shall be grammatically correct.
They shall be understandable.
They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized. (Our work is a symphony, not a solo, because many have had a part.)

In His Service,
Carole Holdinski
The Lockman Foundation


This e-mail is dated Thursday, April 15, 2021.
 
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