Steven Avery
Administrator
WIP
Last edited:
Nicetas Choniates
- Thread starter Steven Avery
- Start date
Steven Avery
Administrator
CARM
https://forums.carm.org/threads/speculum-liber-de-divinis-scripturis.10899/page-12#post-857639
https://archive.org/details/Will1861ActaEtScripta/page/n5/mode/2up
___________________
Acta et scripta quae de controversiis ecclesiae Graecae et Latinae saeculo undecimo composita extant by Cornelius Will [1861] (topics: Schism of 1054, Byzantine Church, Roman Church, Eleventh Century, Church History, Doctrinal Controversies) we find the following:
"V. NICETAE
PRESBYTERI ET MONACHI MONASTERII STUDII LIBELLUS
CONTRA LATINOS EDITUS ET AB APOCRISIARIIS APOSTOLICAE
SEDIS CONSTANTINOPOLI REPERTUS.
.
.
.
III. Animadvertite et attendite, quia in azymis nulla est vivens virtus, mortua enim sunt; in pane autem, hoc est, corpore Christi, tria sunt viventia et vitam praebentia eis, qui ea digne comedunt: Spiritus, aqua et Sanguis, ceu et ipse, qui super pectus Christi in coena recubuit, Ioannes contestificatur in eo verbo: »Tres sunt, qui testimonium dant, Spiritus, aqua et sanguis et hi tres in uno sunt (1. Joan. V, 8),« videlicet in corpore Christi. Quod et secundum tempus Dominicae crucifixionis declaratum est, cum aqua et sanguis ex immaculata costa ipsius effluxit: lancea percussa carne ipsius sanctus Spiritus vivificusque in deificata carne ejus permansit. Quam comedentes in pane, qui immutatus est per Spiritum et effectus est^ corpus Christi, vivimus in ipso, tanquam vivam et deificatam carnem edentes. Sic autem et sanguinem vivum et calidissimum ejus bibentes cum effluente aqua ex immaculata costa ejus mundamur ab omni delicto, ferventireplemur Spiritu. Calidum enim, ut videtis, velut ex latere Domini, calicem bibimus, quia ex viva carne et calida spiritu Christi calidissimus nobis sanguis et üqua emanavit. Quod in eis, qui azyma comedunt , nequit fieri. "
_______________________________
Journals and writings composed of Greek and Latin church controversies in the eleventh century
"Niketas Choniates?
THE BOOK OF THE PRIESTS AND MONKS OF THE MONASTERY
PUBLISHED AGAINST THE LATINS AND BY THE APOSTOLIC APOCRISIARIES
THE SEAT OF CONSTANTINOPLE WAS FOUNDED
"III. Observe and pay attention, because there is no living virtue in unleavened bread, for it is dead; but in the bread, that is, in the body of Christ, there are three living things and giving life to those who eat them worthily: the Spirit, the water, and the blood, or even himself, who reclined on the breast of Christ in the supper, John contradicts in that word: "There are three , who bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are in one (1 John 5:8), namely in the body of Christ. And this was declared according to the time of Sunday's crucifixion, when water and blood flowed from his immaculate rib; As we eat bread, which is changed by the Spirit and is the result of the body of Christ, we live in him, as if we were eating living and deified flesh. And so, drinking his living and most warm blood with the water flowing from his immaculate rib, we are cleansed from all sin, we are filled with the boiling Spirit. For, as you see, we drink the cup warm, as if from the side of the Lord, because from the living flesh and warm spirit of Christ, the warmest blood and water emanated for us. This cannot happen in those who eat unleavened bread."
Next piece of text, immediately following on from above (same passage):
"IV. Si autem mortuum infermentatum comeditis, o sapientissimi, ut sermo declaravit, cujus rei gratia gloriamini, dicentes: »Quia non sicut vos sale et fermento atque aqua farinam temperamus et sic facimus oblationem azymorum nostrorum, sed aqua sola et farina et igni azymum conficimus et in tribus his puram facimus nostram oblatio- nem ;« percontamur * igitur vos, haectria, aquam et farinam et ignem , ad quid accipitis; et cujus * effipiem esse haec aestimatis? Carnis Domini? Sed non inquit dilectus Christo Ioannes »Tres sunt, qui testimonium perhibent (I. John.V, 8),« aqua et farina et ignis. Sed quid? »Spiritus et aqua et sanguis, et hi tres,in uno sunt (Jbid.), « videlicet in corpore Christi, ut dictum est, quod nos comedentes unimur incarnato propter nos et immolato Christo concorporati ei velut caro ejus sumus ex carne ipsius et os ex ossibus ejus, sicut scriptum est. Si autem ad increatam et incorpoream naturam sanctae Trinitatis assumitis, erratis cadentes in haeresim eorum, qui asserunt Deum passum, qui dicunt compassum Verbum fuisse* carni et eandem ipsam deitatem sustinuisse passionem. Non enim pariter Trinitas incarnata est, Pater et Filius et Spiritus sanctus, ut conspiciantur in ea haec tria, aqua, ut dicitur, et farina et ignis, et ut in figura ipsius faciatis azymum et sacrificium offeratis: sed unus ex Trinitate Filius et Verbum Dei incarnatum est ex castissimis sanctae Virginis carnibus homo effectus; et omnia ordinationis suae perficiens crucifixus est carne, non passa divinitate ipsius. Carne igitur crucifixus tradidit nobis edere per panem carnem suam, quam in spiritu sancto ita vivam dicimus: »Accipite*, comedite, hoc est corpus meum, quod pro vobis fractum est, in remissionem peccatorum (Matth. XXVI, 26—28.)"
________________________-
IV. But if you eat the unleavened dead, O most wise, as he declared in the sermon, concerning glorious grace, saying: "For we do not season the flour with salt and leaven and water as you do, and so we make the offering of our unleavened bread, but we make the unleavened bread with water alone and flour and fire, and in to these three we make our pure offering; and whose image do you think these are? Lord's flesh? But John, beloved of Christ, does not say, "There are three who bear witness" (1 John 5:8), "water, flour, and fire." But what? "Spirit and water and blood, and these three are in one" (Jbid.) namely, in the body of Christ, as it has been said, that in eating we are united to the incarnated and sacrificed Christ for our sake, incorporated into him as his flesh, we are from his flesh and a bone from his bones, as it is written. But if you assume the uncreated and incorporeal nature of the Holy Trinity, you fall into the error of the heresy of those who assert that God suffered, who say that the Compassionate Word was made flesh and that the same deity endured suffering. For the Trinity was not incarnated at the same time, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so that these three may be seen in it, water, as it is said, and meal and fire, and that in his image you should make unleavened bread and offer a sacrifice: but one of the Trinity, the Son and the Word of God man was incarnated from the most chaste flesh of the holy Virgin; and accomplishing all his ordinances He was crucified in the flesh, not in his divinity. Therefore he who was crucified in the flesh gave us to eat his flesh through bread, which we say so alive in the Holy Spirit: "Take, eat, this is my body, which was broken for you, for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:26-28).
https://forums.carm.org/threads/speculum-liber-de-divinis-scripturis.10899/page-12#post-857639
https://archive.org/details/Will1861ActaEtScripta/page/n5/mode/2up
___________________
Acta et scripta quae de controversiis ecclesiae Graecae et Latinae saeculo undecimo composita extant by Cornelius Will [1861] (topics: Schism of 1054, Byzantine Church, Roman Church, Eleventh Century, Church History, Doctrinal Controversies) we find the following:
"V. NICETAE
PRESBYTERI ET MONACHI MONASTERII STUDII LIBELLUS
CONTRA LATINOS EDITUS ET AB APOCRISIARIIS APOSTOLICAE
SEDIS CONSTANTINOPOLI REPERTUS.
.
.
.
III. Animadvertite et attendite, quia in azymis nulla est vivens virtus, mortua enim sunt; in pane autem, hoc est, corpore Christi, tria sunt viventia et vitam praebentia eis, qui ea digne comedunt: Spiritus, aqua et Sanguis, ceu et ipse, qui super pectus Christi in coena recubuit, Ioannes contestificatur in eo verbo: »Tres sunt, qui testimonium dant, Spiritus, aqua et sanguis et hi tres in uno sunt (1. Joan. V, 8),« videlicet in corpore Christi. Quod et secundum tempus Dominicae crucifixionis declaratum est, cum aqua et sanguis ex immaculata costa ipsius effluxit: lancea percussa carne ipsius sanctus Spiritus vivificusque in deificata carne ejus permansit. Quam comedentes in pane, qui immutatus est per Spiritum et effectus est^ corpus Christi, vivimus in ipso, tanquam vivam et deificatam carnem edentes. Sic autem et sanguinem vivum et calidissimum ejus bibentes cum effluente aqua ex immaculata costa ejus mundamur ab omni delicto, ferventireplemur Spiritu. Calidum enim, ut videtis, velut ex latere Domini, calicem bibimus, quia ex viva carne et calida spiritu Christi calidissimus nobis sanguis et üqua emanavit. Quod in eis, qui azyma comedunt , nequit fieri. "
_______________________________
Journals and writings composed of Greek and Latin church controversies in the eleventh century
"Niketas Choniates?
THE BOOK OF THE PRIESTS AND MONKS OF THE MONASTERY
PUBLISHED AGAINST THE LATINS AND BY THE APOSTOLIC APOCRISIARIES
THE SEAT OF CONSTANTINOPLE WAS FOUNDED
"III. Observe and pay attention, because there is no living virtue in unleavened bread, for it is dead; but in the bread, that is, in the body of Christ, there are three living things and giving life to those who eat them worthily: the Spirit, the water, and the blood, or even himself, who reclined on the breast of Christ in the supper, John contradicts in that word: "There are three , who bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are in one (1 John 5:8), namely in the body of Christ. And this was declared according to the time of Sunday's crucifixion, when water and blood flowed from his immaculate rib; As we eat bread, which is changed by the Spirit and is the result of the body of Christ, we live in him, as if we were eating living and deified flesh. And so, drinking his living and most warm blood with the water flowing from his immaculate rib, we are cleansed from all sin, we are filled with the boiling Spirit. For, as you see, we drink the cup warm, as if from the side of the Lord, because from the living flesh and warm spirit of Christ, the warmest blood and water emanated for us. This cannot happen in those who eat unleavened bread."
Next piece of text, immediately following on from above (same passage):
"IV. Si autem mortuum infermentatum comeditis, o sapientissimi, ut sermo declaravit, cujus rei gratia gloriamini, dicentes: »Quia non sicut vos sale et fermento atque aqua farinam temperamus et sic facimus oblationem azymorum nostrorum, sed aqua sola et farina et igni azymum conficimus et in tribus his puram facimus nostram oblatio- nem ;« percontamur * igitur vos, haectria, aquam et farinam et ignem , ad quid accipitis; et cujus * effipiem esse haec aestimatis? Carnis Domini? Sed non inquit dilectus Christo Ioannes »Tres sunt, qui testimonium perhibent (I. John.V, 8),« aqua et farina et ignis. Sed quid? »Spiritus et aqua et sanguis, et hi tres,in uno sunt (Jbid.), « videlicet in corpore Christi, ut dictum est, quod nos comedentes unimur incarnato propter nos et immolato Christo concorporati ei velut caro ejus sumus ex carne ipsius et os ex ossibus ejus, sicut scriptum est. Si autem ad increatam et incorpoream naturam sanctae Trinitatis assumitis, erratis cadentes in haeresim eorum, qui asserunt Deum passum, qui dicunt compassum Verbum fuisse* carni et eandem ipsam deitatem sustinuisse passionem. Non enim pariter Trinitas incarnata est, Pater et Filius et Spiritus sanctus, ut conspiciantur in ea haec tria, aqua, ut dicitur, et farina et ignis, et ut in figura ipsius faciatis azymum et sacrificium offeratis: sed unus ex Trinitate Filius et Verbum Dei incarnatum est ex castissimis sanctae Virginis carnibus homo effectus; et omnia ordinationis suae perficiens crucifixus est carne, non passa divinitate ipsius. Carne igitur crucifixus tradidit nobis edere per panem carnem suam, quam in spiritu sancto ita vivam dicimus: »Accipite*, comedite, hoc est corpus meum, quod pro vobis fractum est, in remissionem peccatorum (Matth. XXVI, 26—28.)"
________________________-
IV. But if you eat the unleavened dead, O most wise, as he declared in the sermon, concerning glorious grace, saying: "For we do not season the flour with salt and leaven and water as you do, and so we make the offering of our unleavened bread, but we make the unleavened bread with water alone and flour and fire, and in to these three we make our pure offering; and whose image do you think these are? Lord's flesh? But John, beloved of Christ, does not say, "There are three who bear witness" (1 John 5:8), "water, flour, and fire." But what? "Spirit and water and blood, and these three are in one" (Jbid.) namely, in the body of Christ, as it has been said, that in eating we are united to the incarnated and sacrificed Christ for our sake, incorporated into him as his flesh, we are from his flesh and a bone from his bones, as it is written. But if you assume the uncreated and incorporeal nature of the Holy Trinity, you fall into the error of the heresy of those who assert that God suffered, who say that the Compassionate Word was made flesh and that the same deity endured suffering. For the Trinity was not incarnated at the same time, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so that these three may be seen in it, water, as it is said, and meal and fire, and that in his image you should make unleavened bread and offer a sacrifice: but one of the Trinity, the Son and the Word of God man was incarnated from the most chaste flesh of the holy Virgin; and accomplishing all his ordinances He was crucified in the flesh, not in his divinity. Therefore he who was crucified in the flesh gave us to eat his flesh through bread, which we say so alive in the Holy Spirit: "Take, eat, this is my body, which was broken for you, for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:26-28).
Attachments
Steven Avery
Administrator
TWOGIG
Fathers Cite Disputatio as the words and work of Athanasius
[Migne Graeca] Furthermore, the Greeks of the 12th Century recognized [Disputatio Contra Arium] as a genuine work of Athanasius.
(Latin: Porro vides Graecam saeculi xii synodum agnovisse ut genuinum Athanasii opus. Migne Graeca, PG
140.209, fn. 7)
• Niketas or Nicetas Choniates (Greek: Νικήτας Χωνιάτης, ca. 1155 to 1217), whose real surname was Akominatos
(Ἀκομινάτος), was a Greek Byzantine government official and historian – like his brother Michael Akominatos, whom he
accompanied to Constantinople from their birthplace Chonae (from which came his nickname,”Choniates”meaning”person
from Chonae"). Nicetas wrote a history of the Eastern Roman Empire from 1118 to 1207. His theological work,
(Thesaurus Orthodoxae Fidei), although extant in a complete form in manuscripts, has been published only in part. It is
one of the chief authorities for the heresies and heretical writers of the 12th century.
(Niketas Choniates. Wikipedia. <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niketas_Choniates>)
● [Thesaurus. Book 25.6] St Athanasius’s, from his discourse speech, which was given at the holy first great synod at Nicaea towards Arius (Nicetae Choniatae. Thesauri Lib. XXV.6; Translated by Pavlos D Vasileiadis, correspondence, 15 December 2018)
○ Greek: Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἀθανασίου,
Fathers Cite Disputatio as the words and work of Athanasius
[Migne Graeca] Furthermore, the Greeks of the 12th Century recognized [Disputatio Contra Arium] as a genuine work of Athanasius.
(Latin: Porro vides Graecam saeculi xii synodum agnovisse ut genuinum Athanasii opus. Migne Graeca, PG
140.209, fn. 7)
• Niketas or Nicetas Choniates (Greek: Νικήτας Χωνιάτης, ca. 1155 to 1217), whose real surname was Akominatos
(Ἀκομινάτος), was a Greek Byzantine government official and historian – like his brother Michael Akominatos, whom he
accompanied to Constantinople from their birthplace Chonae (from which came his nickname,”Choniates”meaning”person
from Chonae"). Nicetas wrote a history of the Eastern Roman Empire from 1118 to 1207. His theological work,
(Thesaurus Orthodoxae Fidei), although extant in a complete form in manuscripts, has been published only in part. It is
one of the chief authorities for the heresies and heretical writers of the 12th century.
(Niketas Choniates. Wikipedia. <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niketas_Choniates>)
● [Thesaurus. Book 25.6] St Athanasius’s, from his discourse speech, which was given at the holy first great synod at Nicaea towards Arius (Nicetae Choniatae. Thesauri Lib. XXV.6; Translated by Pavlos D Vasileiadis, correspondence, 15 December 2018)
○ Greek: Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἀθανασίου,
Last edited: