Romans 3 Pauline wonderful scripture pastiche - interpolation into Psalm 14 (13 in LXX) of the "LXX" socalled

[Steven Avery]

This can be a spot to keep the information, which is scattered on the net.

Quotes like those of Jerome, Delitzsch, Moo, Kraft and Sanday-Headlam planned for the next post.

Then some of the discussions, including how this is not even mentioned in major works that purport
to talk about OT/NT relationships:

==================

[textualcriticism] The LXX and Psalm 14
Steven - Aug, 2009
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/textualcriticism/conversations/topics/5084

[KJBD] LXX - Psalms 14 -'smoothing' to Romans 3
Steven - Jan, 2007
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/kingjamesbibledefense/conversations/topics/2787

Puritanboard
Psalm 14:3 in LXX
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/psalm-14-3-in-lxx.15502/
Steve Rafalsky post!

==================

 

[Steven Avery]

florilegium and pastiche

"In medieval Latin a florilegium (plural florilegia) was a compilation of excerpts from other writings. The word is from the Latin flos (flower) and legere (to gather)."

florilegium would be the scholars word rather than pastiche. Might be helpful in a post.

Apostolic Friends Forum
I see this as a direct assault on the KJV
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=51379&page=25

Full presentation needed. Will try to find an hour or two.

Steven

 

[Steven Avery]

Paul F. Herring and Frank Selch

One reference to the Frank Selch paper.

The New Testament:
The Hebrew Behind The Greek
The Language and Mindset of God: Hebraic or Hellenistic? (2016)
Paul F. Herring
https://religiondocbox.com/Judaism/85614697-The-new-testament-the-hebrew-behind-the-greek.html

https://www.circumcisedheart.info/The%20New%20Testament-%20the%20Hebrew%20Behind%20the%20Greek%202nd%20edition%20Apr16.pdf

There are many examples where there is strong evidence that the LXX has been altered over the last 2000 years to conform to popular translations of the NT. One such glaring example is Romans 3: This passage has a great many problems as outlined in some depth in an article by Frank Selch, The Enigma of Romans. Frank is able to show quite conclusively that the verses of Romans 3:13-18 were written back into the LXX in the early Christian centuries. Thus we are confronted with the very challenging discovery that: The Septuagint has been seriously tainted even to the point of redaction 25 so as to agree with many NT miss-translations (i.e. translations that agreed with neither the Hebrew versions of the Tanakh or the earlier versions of the LXX).

What follows is an attempt to expand upon this argument and provide convincing evidence of its veracity, as well as analysing the impact of this apparently deliberate distortion and mis-appropriation of Scripture. Once established, it is then important to see what doctrinal beliefs have been introduced and supported by this faulty understanding and application, as well as what alternative articles of faith should instead be acknowledged and promoted. These questions and issues I would argue are very serious and foundational to both our individual and corporate lives, and to the momentous events of the approaching last days re-editing, i.e. changed by the transcribers or translators - Page 19

=========================

A blog from the same author (add colour to quotes):

'There Are None Righteous' -The Apostle Paul? - (May, 2015)
Error Alert - Context Needed
Paul F. Herring
https://luke443.blogspot.com/2015/05/there-are-none-righteous-apostle-paul.html

You might also find though some like the famous Adam Clarke (1762–1832)[2] indicating that Romans 3:13-18 is in fact a direct quote of Ps 14 in the Septuagint: “This and all the following verses to the end of the 18th Romans 3:13-18 are found in the Septuagint, but not in the Hebrew text; and it is most evident that it was from this version that the apostle quoted, as the verses cannot be found in any other place with so near an approximation to the apostle's meaning and words.”

Note that Adam Clarke states ‘with so near an approximation’, yet the Greek versions are not just close they are identical!

Quoting Frank Selch (The Enigma of Romans 3:10-18):
“The LXX came into being approx. 200 plus years before the Christian era. Is it at all feasible that Psalm 13 [Masoretic Psalm14] contained that inclusion which is there today? In all likelihood no, since the verses are a collection from other Psalms and wisdom writings and need not be there.

The following segment from Romans 3:13-18 is from the NKJV:

‘Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.’

And this one is a copy of Psalm 14:3 [Ps.13 in the Greek text] from the ‘English Translation of the Greek Septuagint Bible, The Translation of the Greek Old Testament Scriptures, Including the Apocrypha’; as compiled from the Translation by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851

‘Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit the poison of asps is under their lips whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; Destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known there is no fear of God before their eyes.’

Here is the Greek text of Romans 3:13-18
τάφος νε γμένος ὁ λάρυγξ α τῶν, ταῖς γλώσσαις α τῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν, ἰὸς σπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη α τῶν·ὧν τὸ στόμα ρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει, ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες α τῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα, σύντριμμα καὶ αλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς α τῶν, καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης ο κ ἔγνωσαν ο κ ἔστιν φόβος θεοῦ πέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν α τῶν.

And here is the text of Psalm 14:3b [13] from the LXX
‘…τάφος νε γμένος ὁ λάρυγξ α τῶν ταῖς γλώςαις α τῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν ἰὸς σπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη α τῶν ὧν τὸ στόμα ρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες α τῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα σύντριμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς α τῶν καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης ο κ ἔγνωσαν ο κ ἔστιν φόβος θεοῦ πέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν α τῶν.

The two portions are identical!”

So, is this a slam dunk proof that the LXX was indeed used after all (as most Christian scholars have indeed argued for a great many years)?

NO!

Because even Adam Clarke went on to state: “The verses in question, however, are not found in the Alexandrian MS. But they exist in the Vulgate, the AEthiopic, and the Arabic. As the most ancient copies of the Septuagint do not contain these verses, some contend that the apostle has quoted them from different parts of Scripture; and later transcribers of the Septuagint, finding that the 10th, 11th, and 12th, verses were quoted from the xivth Psalm, Ps 14:10-12 imagined that the rest were found originally there too, and so incorporated them in their copies, from the apostle's text.”[3],[4]

Pause and consider carefully!

Adam Clarke acknowledges (and this was over 150 years ago!) that the earliest versions of the LXX (first compiled in Alexandria), do not contain this portion that is so perfectly quoted in Romans 3! That is, the Romans 3 quote we have today has been added by the translators at some stage. It is not a translation of the original; it is not inspired by any stretch of the imagination, but instead a great forgery (however well intentioned the editors may have been in their redaction)!

Have others noted this before?

Yes, Douglas Moo's opinion (from his NICNT commentary, ‘The Epistle To the Romans’, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996) writes: “The inclusion of Romans 3:13-18 in several MSS of the LXX of Psalm 14 is a striking example of the influence of Christian scribes on the transmission of the LXX. (See S-H for a thorough discussion). (p. 203, fn. 28) [S-H refers to A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, by William Sanday and Arthur C. Headlam (ICC. Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1902)]”

Douglas Moo is stating that the Septuagint's rendering in Psalm 14:3 is a direct insertion copied back from Romans 3:13-18 by Christian editors and translators.

Clearly something very deliberate and most questionable is evident here. Further, very few, if any Hebrew manuscripts have this version of Ps 14. The Dead Sea Scrolls portion 11QPs(c) contains Ps. 14:1-6 in Hebrew. Below is a translation in English of this Psalm:

Psalm 14:
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God”. They are corrupt, they commit vile wickedness; there is no one who does good.
2 YHWH looks down from heaven upon humankind to see if there are any who are wise, any who seek after God.
3 They have all gone astray; they are all alike corrupt; there is no one who does good – no, not even one.
4 Do they never learn, all those evildoers who devour my people as humans eat bread, and who do not call upon the YHWH?
5 Toward this place they will be in mighty dread, for God is with the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but YHWH is their refuge.
- See p 515 ‘The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible’ Martin Abegg Jr, Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich 1999

Given the existence of this Hebrew version of Ps 14 at the time that the Apostle Paul first wrote Romans, and given the evidence I have referred to that indicates that Hebrew was both the main spoken language in Israel during the Second Temple period[5], and the language in which the Jewish scribes and the Jewish authors of the NT wrote; then this is much more likely the version that Paul would have quoted.

So, we might ask again at this point, why was this deliberate change made to the Septuagint and the NT, and what are the implications and ramifications of this deliberate tampering with versions of the LXX and it would appear by inference, the NT?

I will address this in the last section of this book, but to put it bluntly, it all comes back to Doctrine, to the deliberate attempt to write into the NT, the doctrines of men, rather than accept the doctrines and teachings (Torah) of the Almighty and His Messiah!

This is an excerpt from my book 'The New Testament: The Hebrew Behind the Greek' - on amazon at http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Testament-Hebrew-Behind-ebook/dp/B009XO0NQU/

 

[Steven Avery]

David A. Sapp on Isaiah 53 - Romans and Psalm connection missing in Jobe/Silva

From the NT Textual Criticism forum (bring over the other posts too)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTT...d=739042416182761&offset=0&total_comments=118

James, I noticed something in her lauding the GOT on Isaiah 53. (p. 28-29). Daniel Sapp wrote an excellent paper on this question:

"Jesus and the Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53 and Christian Origins"
The LXX, 1Q1sa, and MT Versions of Isaiah 53 and the Christian Doctrine of Atonement
by David A. Sapp

Some details here:

[Messianic_Apologetic] Isaiah 53, comparison of MT, LXX, and DSS
Steven Avery - May 22, 2002
https://groups.yahoo.com/.../conversations/topics/1668

This I believe is an important paper, showing that the GOT is inferior to the DSS/MT Isaiah in terms of atonement and the sufffering servant. Quite different than what she writes in the paper above. At the very least, the Daniel Sapp article not being referenced in her paper is a major miss.

=======================

In general Karen Jobe starts with the type of presumption that avoids thinking about the type of issues from Psalm 14 coming from Romans 3. So you do you have to be careful with the writing, as often happens with "LXX" scholars.

And I was actually rather shocked to see the major Silva/Jobe book not even mentioning the multi-verse interpolation of the NT into the "LXX". There seems to be a blindness involved, an elephant in the living room.

========================

The Isaiah 7:14 and "reigned from the tree" sections are not very substantive. There is a lot fuller and more accurate information available. See Daniel Gruber and William Most on Isaiah, to start. The "tree" section is de minimis.

There are some good tidbits in the paper. The part about Jerome's view of the GOT is short, but clear.

 

[Steven Avery]

AFF - Sept 1, 2017 #237
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1498803&postcount=237

Originally Posted by Esaias Can you elaborate on the Psalm 14 "smoking gun"? Also, why should we conclude Greek OT texts/manuscripts were edited to conform to NT manuscripts, and not that the NT writers were quoting or referencing Greek OT texts/manuscripts?

First Paul beautifully puts together a number of scriptures, using numerous Psalms and Isaiah,
.. simply "it is written".

Romans 3:10-18
As it is written,
3:10 There is none righteous, no, not one: (Psalm 14:1)
3:11 There is none that understandeth, (Psalm 14:2)
there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Psalm 14:3) - also Psalm 53 1-3

After being written as one unit in the NT, Romans 3:13-18 is brought into the Greek text, the OT Greek is identical to that in Romans:

3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre;
with their tongues they have used deceit; (Psalm 5:9)
the poison of asps is under their lips: (Psalm 140:3).
3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (Psalm 10:7)
3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: (Isaiah 59:7; Proverbs 1:16).
3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: (Isaiah 59:7).
3:17 And the way of peace have they not known: (Isaiah 59:8).
3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. (Psalms 36:1).

Then we find in the fourth century, no earlier, no Hebrew or Aramaic tradition whatsoever,
that extra text is inserted that matches the full six verses from Romans.


Quote:

The Septuagint Psalm Superscriptions (Part 1) Prof Tyler F. Williams - 14th August 2005 http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2005...ptions-part-1/ The LXX is replete with examples of clearly secondary readings that have full textual support (The most famous is Psalm 14(13):3, which includes the text of Romans 3:13-18. This clearly was triggered by the fact that Paul quotes a chain of OT texts beginning with Ps 14(13):3 and them moving without comment to Ps 5.10, 139.4, 9,28; Isa 59:7, 8; Ps 35.2).

(There is some checking, for one thing the Greek has some different verse and chapter numbers, I am sticking with the AV and Hebrew Bible order.)


Quote:

The Bible in the Sixteenth Century - David C. Steinmetz -editor (1996) Hebraica Veritas and Traditio Apostolica: Saint Paul and the Interpretation of the Psalms in the Sixteenth Century. R. Gerald Hobbs http://books.google.com/books?id=oRvQbmw6f4QC&pg=PA92 The Interpolation of a New Testament Passage into the Text of a Psalm In arguing for the depravity of the human race in Romans 3, Paul brings a string of proof texts from Scripture: Psalms 14:1-3,5:9 140:3 10:7 Isaiah 59:7-8; Psalm 36:1. The collection is artfully constructed, and some modern scholars have argued that Paul is making use of an already existing catena. Our interest lies in the fact that at some point early in the Christian era this entire catena found its way back into some Greek copies of Psalm 14 and thence into several of the Latin versions. Jerome, following Origen, included it in the Gallican Psalter with appropriate diacritical marks. But these soon disappeared in the course of copying, and the medieval Psalter contained the conflated psalm text .. although Jerome's Iuxta Hebraeum did not, and his commentary drew attention to the interpolation.

Quote:

Werner Bible Commentary http://wernerbiblecommentary.org/?q=book/print/19 In Rahlfs' printed text, the expanded reading of verse 3, found in Romans 3:13-18, is enclosed in brackets to indicate that it is not considered a part of the original text of the Septuagint. The apostle Paul quoted these words to show that both Jews and Greeks (non-Jews) are all under sin. With the expanded portion, verse 3 of the Septuagint and Romans 3:12-18 (with the exception of one transposition) are identical. The Masoretic Text does have the words quoted in Romans 3:12 but does not include those found in Romans 3:13-18. Portions of the quotation are, however, found in other psalms (5:9; 10:7; 36:1; 140:3) and in Isaiah 59:7, 8.

Think about it a bit.

This is what Paul was actually referencing the beautiful scriptural pastiche.

Psalm 14:1-3 (AV)
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 5:9
For there is no faithfulness in their mouth;
their inward part is very wickedness;
their throat is an open sepulchre;
they flatter with their tongue.

Psalm 140:3
They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent;
adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.

Psalm 10:7
His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud:
under his tongue is mischief and vanity.

Isaiah 59:7
Their feet run to evil,
and they make haste to shed innocent blood:
their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity;
wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Proverbs 1:16
For their feet run to evil,
and make haste to shed blood.

Isaiah 59:8
The way of peace they know not;
and there is no judgment in their goings:
they have made them crooked paths:
whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Psalm 36:1
The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart,
that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

=================

Here is Psalm 14:4-7 in the Hebrew Bible:

Psalm 14:4-7 (AV)
|Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion!
when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Steven

 

[Steven Avery]

AFF - 9-3-2017 - #241
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1498994&postcount=241

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias From Meyer's New Testament Commentary: .... [779] The MSS. of the LXX. which read the whole passage vv. 13–18 at Psalm 14:3, have been interpolated from our passage in Christian times. See Wolf, Cur. on ver. 10

The key point, the socalled "LXX", thought of as 3rd century BC, has material from Christian times. As for the general commentary, I find John Gill or Matthew Henry as giving far more Holy Spirit insight than 1800s writers like Meyer, or just about anybody since.

The Johann Christoph Wolf (1683-1739) citation is not yet very helpful, he has five volumes beginning in 1725, in Latin, of the Curae Philologicae Et Criticae. The fifth one does have a fine section on the heavenly witnesses:

Curae Philologicae Et Criticae p. 293-314
http://books.google.com/books?id=Gz5BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA293

It is reasonably likely that the Romans verse 10 section (seems to be the Wolf ref) will be in Volume 4. I have not yet searched, it might be interesting. At least for helping to show the development of the understanding. Plus Wolf might give his own earlier refs.


Quote:

John Gill - Psalm 14:3 http://www.biblestudytools.com/comme...alms-14-3.html https://archive.org/stream/JohnGillO...n139/mode/2up/ [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one: ... Here follows in the Septuagint version, according to the Vatican copy, all those passages quoted by the apostle, (Romans 3:13); which have been generally supposed to have been taken from different parts of Scripture; so the Syriac scholiast says, in some ancient Greek copies are found eight more verses, and these are they, "Their throat", &c.

From John Gill (1697-1771) we move forward to Franz Delitzsch.


Quote:

Biblical Commentary on the Psalms Vol. 1 (1871) Franz Delitzsch - comments on Psalm 14:3: https://books.google.com/books?id=DFktAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA205 http://www.godrules.net/library/deli...litzsch_e1.htm https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version...eference=Ps.14 The citations of the apostle which follow his quotation of the Psalm, from τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος to ἀπέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν were early incorporated in the Psalm in the Κοινή of the LXX. They appear as an integral part of it in the Cod. Alex., in the Greco-Latin Psalterium Vernonense, and in the Syriac Psalterium Mediolanense. They are also found in Apollinaris' paraphrase of the Psalms as a later interpolation; the Cod. Vat. has them in the margin; and the words σύντπιμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς αὐτῶν have found admittance in the translation, which is more Rabbinical than Old Hebrew, מזּל רע וּפגע רע בּדרכיהם even in a Hebrew codex (Kennicott 649). Origen rightly excluded this apostolic Mosaic work of Old Testament testimonies from his text of the Psalm; and the true representation of the matter is to be found in Jerome, in the preface to the xvi. book of his commentary on Isaiah. (Note: Cf. Plüschke's Monograph on the Milanese Psalterium Syriacum, 1835, p. 28-39.)

Tyndale House has the Greek and Hebrew text with the unicode fonts. Often this is called Keil-Delitzsch, Karl Friedrich Keil (1807-1888) & Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890).

Quote:

NICNT commentary, The Epistle To the Romans (Eerdmans, 1996) Douglas Moo https://books.google.com/books?id=Q2...A203&lpg=PA203 "The inclusion of Romans 3:13-18 in several MSS of the LXX of Psalm 14 is a striking example of the influence of Christian scribes on the transmission of the LXX. (See S-H for a thorough discussion)." [S-H refers to A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, by William Sanday and Arthur C. Headlam (ICC. Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1902)]

William Sanday (1842-1920) and Arthur Cayley Headlam (1862-1947).


Quote:

A critical and exegetical commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, (first ed. 1895) William Sanday and Arthur C. Headlam http://www.archive.org/stream/critic...ge/76/mode/2up https://bible.prayerrequest.com/5536...mans/3/1/3/99/ - (some errors in the Greek) As a whole this conglomerate of quotations has had a curious history. The quotations in N.T. frequently react upon the text of O.T., and they have done so here: vv. 13-18 got imported bodily into Psa_14 [13 LXX] as an appendage to ver. 4 in the ‘common’ text of the LXX (ἡκιή i.e. the unrevised text current in the time of Origen). They are still found in Codd. א B R U and many cursive MSS. of LXX (om. א a A), though the Greek commentators on the Psalms do not recognize them. From interpolated MSS. such as these they found their way into Lat.-Vet., and so into Jerome’s first edition of the Psalter (the ‘Roman’), also into his second edition (the ‘Gallican,’ based upon Origen’s Hexapla), though marked with an obelus after the example of Origen. The obelus dropped out, and they are commonly printed in the Vulgate text of the Psalms, which is practically the Gallican. From the Vulgate they travelled into Coverdale’s Bible (a.d. 1535); from thence into Matthew’s (Rogers’) Bible, which in the Psalter reproduces Coverdale (a.d. 1537), and also into the ‘Great Bible’ (first issued by Cromwell in 1539, and afterwards with a preface by Cranmer, whence it also bears the name of Cranmer’s Bible, in 1540). The Psalter of the Great Bible was incorporated in the Book of Common Prayer, in which it was retained as being familiar and smoother to sing, even in the later revision which substituted elsewhere the Authorized Version of 1611. The editing of the Great Bible was due to Coverdale, who put an * to the passages found in the Vulgate but wanting in the Hebrew. These marks however had the same fate which befell the obeli of Jerome. They were not repeated in the Prayer-Book; so that English Churchmen still read the interpolated verses in Psa_14 with nothing to distinguish them from the rest of the text. Jerome himself was well aware that these verses were no part of the Psalm. In his commentary on Isaiah, lib. 16, he notes that St. Paul quoted Isa_59:7, Isa_59:8 in Ep. to Rom., and he adds, quod multi ignorantes, de tertio decimo psalmo sumptum putant, qui versus [Grk] in editione Vulgata [i. e. the (Grk) the LXX] additi sunt et in Hebraico non habentur (Hieron. Opp. ed. Migne, iv. 601; comp. the preface to the same book, ibid. col. 568 f.; also the newly discovered Commentarioli in Psalmos, ed. Morin, 1895, p. 24 f.).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias And, apparently the issue of Psalm 14:3 containing an interpolation from Romans 3 is a question affecting several Greek OT manuscripts or texts, and NOT really bearing significantly on the existence of a Greek OT textual tradition used by Paul.

Actually it bears very significantly, since Paul could very easily have been using the Hebrew text and not one of any varying Greek editions. That is one point in the matter.

Another is that the Greek OT texts that we have from Vaticanus on should be recognized as having been vulnerable to major tampering and smoothing to actually match the NT writers. John Owen in the 1600s discussed this with solid insight, although, surprisingly, I have not seen him emphasize this Psalm-Romans connection. He was razor-focused on Hebrews and that was often his context.

Such a conglomerate section that we have in Romans 3, and Psalm 14 in the so-called "LXX", actually did not exist until long after the NT was written by Paul.

So in the common usage of "LXX" you can have new material created or smoothed after the NT.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias I have been trying to track down the ms evidence for Psalm 14 in the Hebrew. I've tracked down a translation from 11Q7 (11QPs-c) but have not yet been able to find if or where Psalm 14 reoccurs in the DSS.

The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible is good for that material. You may have everything.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias I'm also trying to track down Psalm 53 in both Greek and Hebrew, as the two Psalms are practically identical. Question: Why does everyone assume Paul is quoting Psalm 14, and not 53?

I wondered that myself. It may be habit, since they think in terms of Psalm 53 copying 14. There may be a technical word issue. Ultimately, it is not that significant, after the first three verses both psalms diverge, and the Romans section is not related to either one.

---

Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-03-2017 at 08:47 AM.

 

[Steven Avery]

AFF - 9/3/2017 - 242
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1499002&postcount=242

Wolf on Romans 3:10 and the LXX insertion from NT
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery It is reasonably likely that the Romans verse 10 section (seems to be the Wolf ref) will be in Volume 4. I have not yet searched, it might be interesting. At least for helping to show the development of the understanding. Plus Wolf might give his own earlier refs.

Curae philologicae et criticae in Novum Testamentum, Volume 3 - The Pauline Epistles
Johann Christoph Wolf
https://books.google.com/books?id=jK4WAAAAQAAJ

Romans 3:10
https://books.google.com/books?id=jK4WAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA54

==========================

On the DSS, this is something I wrote up in 2007, using an Aramaic Peshitta forum post ( http://aramaicpeshitta.proboards49.com ) that is no longer online. And I did not keep the poster's name.

==========================

DSS - BEFORE JESUS - SUPPORTS MASORETIC TEXT OF PSALM 14

11QPs(c) contains Ps. 14:1-6

Here is how the DSS reads for Psalm 14 (it doesn't support the long gloss in Ps 14:3 contained in later editions of the LXX, but is badly fragmented).

text in blue was interpolated,
text in black was able to be read from the fragments.

Text notes provided by the translators are in red. The italics are apparently used by the translators to highlight where the DSS is different than the Masoretic text.

Psalm 14 (11Q Psc, Dead Sea Scrolls)

For the Director: of David (note 15)
1: The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, the commit vile wickedness; (note 16) There is no one who does good.
2. The LORD looks down from heaven upon upon humankind to see if there are any who are wise, any who seek after God.
3. They have all gone astray, they are all corrupt; there is no one who does good -- no not even one.
4. Do they never learn, all these evildoers who devour my people as humans eat bread, and who do not call upon the LORD?
5. Toward this place (note 17) they will be in mighty dread, for God is with the company of hte righteous.
6. You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge.

Note 15: Hebrew vs. 1
Note 16: 11QPsc, deed(s) MT LXX
Note 17: Literally to there 11QPsc, There MT LXX

Source: Abegg, Jr., Martin; Flint, Peter; Ulrich, Eugene.
The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English.
Harper SanFrancisco, New York, 1999, p. 515.

================================================== =============

If this is to be used as a resource, it would be helpful if I added the information from Justin Martyr, Origen and Jerome.

 

[Steven Avery]

AFF - 9-3-2017 # 243
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1499028&postcount=243

Hi,

This section has also been part of Protestant and RCC dispute.

===================

An interesting discussion.

A Reply to Doctor Milner's "End of Religious Controversy," So Far as the Churches of the English Communion are Concerned (1847)
Samuel Farmar Jarvis
https://books.google.com/books?id=sjI3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA53
https://archive.org/details/areplytodoctorm00jarvgoog/page/n57/mode/2up

Vaticanus and LXX

This interpolation seems to have been originally a marginal note, occasioned by the belief that St. Paul quoted this Psalm in Romans iii. 10-18. For in the celebrated Vatican Manuscript, one of the oldest extant, these verses are written in the margin with this note: “These are placed nowhere in the Psalms; whence, therefore, the Apostle took them, must be a subject of inquiry.”* The annotator was in part mistaken.

• Montfaucon, Origenis Hexapla, tom. i. p. 492.

Hexaplorum Origenis Quae Supersunt Multis Partibus Auctiora, quàm a Flaminio Nobilio et Joanne Drusio edita fuerint: 1
https://books.google.com/books?id=ltNFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA492

CONTINUES

Milner refuted; or, Pious frauds exemplified in dr. Milner's 'End of religious controversy', a series of articles (1856)
Charles Hastings Collette
https://books.google.com/books?id=Rt0CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA7

The Bibliographer: 1881, Volumes 1-2
Some Notices of the Genevan Bible
Nicholas Pocock
https://books.google.com/books?id=1B...AJ&pg=RA1-PA44
The text of a 1579 Geneva Bible note on this question!

===================

Steven

​

 

[Steven Avery]

AV1611
Vaticanus is the main 'LXX' MS
https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624

Facebook - Mark Michie
https://business.facebook.com/mark.michie.7/posts/10201790552122755
To give one example of the complexity, it is pretty clear (discussed by Delitzsch) that Jerome, and even Origen earlier, had opposed the Romans corruption into Psalm 14 (13 in the Greek).

Facebook - New Testament Textual Criticism

NT Textual Criticism | Can anyone date the LXX (Septuagint) AND provide evidence of their dating | Facebook

Can anyone date the LXX (Septuagint) AND provide evidence of their dating?

www.facebook.com

ETC
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2013/11/sbl-press-recently-announced-following.html

https://www.facebook.com/mark.michie.7/posts/10201790552122755

 

[Steven Avery]

Facebook - 2023 - Textus Receptus Academy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467217787457422/posts/1315539195958606/

 

[Steven Avery]

Delitzsch and Jarvis discuss margin, but it might be Romans.3 margin note.

 

[Steven Avery]

Christian 'corruption' of Psalms 14/53 to match Romans 3:10-18 - B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum

o match Romans 3:10-18​

• Quote
• Post by Stephen Nelson » November 5th, 2019, 9:56 pm
  Here are images of Psalm 14:3 (LXX 13:3) from Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.
  
  In Sinaiticus the part matching Romans 3:13-18 has marks all around it, like modern-day brackets [].
  
  It also appears to be set apart in Vaticanus, where "οὐκ ἔστιν ἕως ἑνός" is centered on its own line, so the next line begins left-adjusted with "τάφος..."
  
  I believe these mss represent the Kaige-Theodotian recension. Does anyone have a recommendation for finding online versions of mss that represent the Lucianic recension (b, o, c2, e2)?

=======


Post by Stephen Nelson » November 6th, 2019, 2:07 am
Correction - I should have said, "It also appears to be set apart in Vaticanus and Sinaiticus..." since the layout of Psalm 14:3 is IDENTICAL between those 2 mss, with the same words filling the same lines. It seems rather remarkable..

========


I think the answers to some of your questions about which manuscripts contain what can be found in the apparatus to Psalmi cum Odis mentioned earlier.
The apparatus, as I interpret it, says:

Rahlfs wrote:3.3–10 Vaticanus Sinaiticus Bohairic; further 2008 2014 2019 2039 2042 2044 2049, also 2037 2051 2019 U Sahidic 1221 R Latin Syriac 1219] marked with ÷ in Gallic Psalter, omitted by Lucianic manuscripts and Theodoret and Alexandrinus: from Rom. 3:13–18, where Paul joins these words (= Ps. 5:10, 139:4, 9:28, Is. 59:7, 8, Ps. 35:2) with Ps. 13:3, compare Preface § 44 & Septuaginta-Studien 2, p. 42 & 229

We don't have high quality images of this part of Alexandrinus available online, but there is a black-and-white facsimile.
Kenyon, Frederic G., ed. The Codex alexandrinus in reduced photographic facsimile. London: British Museum, 1909.

 

[Steven Avery]

This harmonizing expansion appears neither in Codex Alexandrinus nor in the Lucianic Text.”

Marika Pulkkinen
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/314147/PAULSUSE.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

The expansion in Psalm 13:3 appears broadly in various textual streams (B D R S* U 286) as well as in daughter translations of the LXX (Aeth ArabParRom Boh Lat Sah Syr) and seven minuscule manuscripts (115 174 180 189 191 227 273).487

115
174 - London
180 - Paris
189 - Paris
191 - St. Petersburg from Paris
227 - Vatican
273 - Vatican

Athos
769 - Great Lavra
1009 - Vatopedi

487 Rahlfs (1907) 1965, 42, 52. In addition, the enlargement is preserved in MS 2019 (Lond230 = London, British Museum Papyrus 230), a manuscript found in the Fayum that contains Ps 11:7–14:4 and is dated to the end of the third century CE. Rahlfs (15–16) groups the papyrus together with B, S, and the Bohairic text. For the first publication of the papyrus with a facsimile and a transcription of the psalms, see Athenaeum 1894, 319–321. See also Jellicoe 1968, 228. For a detailed discussion, see Milne (ed.) 1927, 173 who dates the manuscript—a papyrus with script both sides, the psalms on its recto and Isocrates’s Ad Demonicum 26–28 on its verso side—to the third or fourth century: “Mistakes both of sense and spelling are frequent. Over the lines of the text down to the end of Ps. xiii a series of dots as the syllables marked off, but by the original hand. No doubt both texts were used for reading exercises.” Further in the description of the verso side it is stated (213): “Each syllable is spaced and marked off with a medial dot [...] Meant for reading or, as Crönert suggest, shorthand exercise. The Psalms on the recto have had a system of dots added for the same purpose. [...] but great liberties have been taken as well as many mistakes committed. Perhaps dictated or written from memory, which might explain the intrusion of echoes from different parts of the work.”

On the other hand, the following witnesses attest to the shorter text:

1. Codex Alexandrinus (A), dating to the fourth or fifth century

2. Manuscript 55, dating to the 10th century

3. The Lucianic text and Theodoret’s Psalter commentary which follows it.488

4. Although Jerome’s Psalter commentary (Ga) contains the expansion, it is marked by an obelus, which indicates that it was lacking from the Hebrew text. The simplest explanation for the shorter text-form in these witnesses is that they attest the earlier text. However, in A and the Lucianic text the shorter reading might be explained as a Hexaplaric omission: Since the Hebrew text lacks the expansion,489 it is conceivable that it was omitted in the Hexapla. This, further, might have led to its omission in A and the Lucianic text,490 both of which sporadically attest Hexaplaric readings. Only fragments of Origen’s Hexapla are preserved, and none contain material from Psalm 13(14). However, Jerome, who marks the expansion in LXX Psalm 13:3 with an obelus in his Psalterum Gallicanum, serves as an indirect witness that the expansion was marked also in Origen’s Hexapla.491

488 Rahlfs includes about 150 younger minuscule manuscripts collated by Holmes and Parsons that attest the Lucianic text. In total, 96 of these that attest to Ps 13 lack the expansion. The earliest (39 / E) of these minuscule manuscripts dates to the ninth century CE. See Rahlfs (1907) 1965, 7, 171; (1931) 1979, 60–68, § 7.1–6. The Lucianic text, which bears the name of Lucian the martyr, is also called the Antiochian text since the Antiochian Church Fathers Chrysostom and Theodoret cite scripture according to the Lucianic text. Lucian was a presbyter who died a martyr’s death in 311 or 312 and who made a new recension at the end of third century. Since he worked under the influence of the so-called atticising movement, he standardized mixed-Greek (Hellenistic) forms, such as ἐλάβοσαν in the LXX to Attic ἐλάβον. Lucian’s recension attained great popularity and was widely circulated: it was used in Constantinople, the capital of the Roman Empire in the East. According to Jerome. Lucian’s version was predominant in the entire area from Antioch to Constantinople by 400 CE.

489 This assumption follows the evidence from Qumran—namely, 11QPsc (11Q7), which is dated to the first century CE and which attests Ps 14(MT):3 without the enlargement. See above n. 464; cf. DJD 23, p. 55. In addition, a preserved text from Nahal Hever, 5/6 ḤevPsalms (Plates XXV–XXVII, Col. VI, fragments 3 + 1 iv; DJD 38 [2000] pp. 141–143) attests to a shorter form of the psalm. Ziegler (1983, 27) also characterizes A as bearing secondary corrections with regard to Isa, independent of the (proto- )Masoretic text.

490 Karrer and Schmid (2010, 171, n. 32) offer similar speculatations, though they view A as corrected according to the Lucianic text, noting (170, 194–195) corrections in Codex Sinaiticus—diplai, i.e. “bracket shaped signs” identifying that the lines do not “belong to the text” (171),—marking 26 lines of the text made by a corrector “sometime between the 5th and 7th centuries” (171).

491 Rahlfs ([1907] 1965, 140) surmises that this implies that Jerome used Origen’s Hexapla, where the same place would also have been marked with an obelus.

 

[Steven Avery]

Robert Lee Vaughn (do not see pic)
Robert Lee Vaughn
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467217787457422/posts/1315539195958606/?comment_id=1317437205768805


As mentioned in the comment to Brother JL Looney III, I tried to get to the actual scan from the Vaticanus online, since he did not wish us to just accept Will’s assertion. I agree that going to the sources is the best solution to settle questions. However, despairing after a couple of days to get the relevant page to open on my computer, as I secondary source I recommend that one can look at how this material is added in as verse 3b in the Greek OT with Brenton English translation. This corresponds with the point Will is making.
3b τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος ὁ λάρυγξ αὐτῶν, ταῖς γλώσσαις αὑτῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν· ἰὸς ἀσπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη αὐτῶν, ὧν τὸ στόμα ἀρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει, ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες αὐτῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα, σύντριμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς αὐτῶν, καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης οὐκ ἔγνωσαν· οὐκ ἔστι φόβος Θεοῦ ἀπέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν.
3b Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.
It is included as a footnote (*) in the Greek Old Testament provided online by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. These words are not in the Hebrew text.
“Their throat is an open sepulchre, with their tongues they have used deceit” is from Psalm 5:9; “the poison of asps is under their lips” is from Psalm 140:3; “whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness” is from Psalm 10:7; “their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known” is from Isaiah 59:7-8; and “there is no fear of God before their eyes” is from Psalm 36:1. “If” Paul is quoting the Greek Old Testament and those words were then in Psalm 14, then the conclusion would be that we need to trash the Hebrew original language apographs, and buy & use only a Greek Old Testament, or an English translation of it! On the other hand, we might realize how many huge messes there are in what has been passed down to us as the Greek OT, and trust the Hebrew and the English translation based on it. Paul, under inspiration of the Spirit, is citing various OT passages that support that the Scriptures conclude all under sin.
https://www.septuagint.bible/-/psalmos-13
https://www.ellopos.net/.../gre.../septuagint/chapter.asp...

 

[Steven Avery]

"And here is the text of Psalm 14:3b" - Google Search

 

[Steven Avery]

Frank Selch

Testimonia – help from Qumran

“It is written” – Quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament (2) When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments. 2 Timothy…

stephencook.com.au

aubreyandpaul
February 27, 2013 at 7:17 am
Interesting and insightful. I’m not sure though that your explanations for Romans 3:10-18 are the only ones. Have you read Frank Selch’s article on this portion of Romans? It’s on my website here –

The Enigma of Romans Chapter Three and other textual Issues

Wayback Machine

Shalom, Paul

https://web.archive.org/web/20140204063832/http://www.charismacomputers.com.au/frank/Romans 3 10.pdf

 

[Steven Avery]

Jerome above
These marks however had the same fate which befell the obeli of Jerome. They were not repeated in the Prayer-Book; so that English Churchmen still read the interpolated verses in Psa_14 with nothing to distinguish them from the rest of the text. Jerome himself was well aware that these verses were no part of the Psalm. In his commentary on Isaiah, lib. 16, he notes that St. Paul quoted Isa_59:7, Isa_59:8 in Ep. to Rom., and he adds, quod multi ignorantes, de tertio decimo psalmo sumptum putant, qui versus [Grk] in editione Vulgata [i. e. the (Grk) the LXX] additi sunt et in Hebraico non habentur (Hieron. Opp. ed. Migne, iv. 601; comp. the preface to the same book, ibid. col. 568 f.; also the newly discovered Commentarioli in Psalmos, ed. Morin, 1895, p. 24 f.).

Jerome

16​

Quomodo et Iudas per avaritiae viam venit ad homicidium, immo sacrilegium avaritiae copulatum. Quodque sequitur: Cogitationes eorum cogitationes stultorum: contritio et infelicitas in viis eorum, et viam pacis non cognoverunt. Et supra: Veloces pedes eorum ad effundendum sanguinem, Apostolus posuit ad Romanos (Cap. III): quod multi ignorantes, de tertio decimo psalmo sumptum putant, qui versus in editione Vulgata additi sunt, et in Hebraico non habentur.

How also Judas came to murder by the way of avarice, nay, sacrilege coupled with avarice. And what follows: Their thoughts are the thoughts of fools: brokenness and unhappiness are in their ways, and they have not known the way of peace. And above: "Their swift feet to shed blood," the apostle put to the Romans (Chapter 3): which many, ignorant of, think taken from the thirteenth psalm, which verses are added in the Vulgate edition, and are not found in the Hebrew.

 

[Steven Avery]

Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament and the Textual History of the Bible - the Wuppertal Research project (2010)
Martin Karrer and Ulrich Schmid
https://books.google.com/books?id=pNjTgpIdqQoC&pg=PA170

 

[Steven Avery]

Same with PDF and has all pages and pictures
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...usg=AOvVaw1ZzaTIT8CHAlTprqkJL02I&opi=89978449

 

[Maprchr]

Jerome's note: Which many, being ignorant of, think taken from the thirteenth psalm, those verses [Grk] in the Vulgate edition [i. e. the (Grk) the LXX] have been added and are not considered in the Hebrew (Hieron. Opp. ed. Migne