Steven Avery
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Tischendorf praised by Cardinal Mezzofanti in Rome in 1843 visit - private audience with (Pope) Gregory - 1860s papal praise
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Steven Avery
Administrator
Giuseppe Caspar Mezzofanti - (1774-1849)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Caspar_Mezzofanti
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Mezzofanti,_Giuseppe_Caspar
Tischendorf - (1866)
https://books.google.com/books?id=EEE2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA176
"Cardinal Mezzofanti honored me with some Greek verses composed in my praise"
==================================
Constantine Tischendorf: The Life and Work of a 19th Century Bible Hunter (2014)
Stanley E. Porter
https://books.google.com/books?id=QhCdBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA123
==================================
The Story of the Manuscripts (1881)
by George Edmands Merrill
https://books.google.com/books?id=rw0-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA74
Tischendorf describes his difficulties in the most interesting manner in a communication to the Leipziger Zeitung of May 31, 1866 ... Cardinal Mai received me with kind recognition; Cardinal Mezzofanti honored me with some Greek verses composed in my praise:
==================================
The Parchments of the Faith
by George Edmunds Merrill
(Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1894), p. 176
https://books.google.com/books?id=EEE2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA176
Tischendorf describes his difficulties in the most interesting way in an article in the Leipziger Zeitung 1 of May 31, 1866: "I had been commended in the most earnest manner by Guizot to the French ambassador, Count Latour Maubourg; I was also favored with many letters of introduction from Prince John of Saxony to his personal friends of high rank; and in addition with a very flattering note from the Archbishop Affre, of Paris, directed to Gregory XVI. The latter, after a prolonged audience granted to me, took an ardent interest in my undertaking ; Cardinal Mai received me with kind recognition; Cardinal Mezzofanti honored me with some Greek verses composed in my praise; but notwithstanding I had to content myself with six hours for a hasty examination of the Codex Vaticanus and the transcription in fac simile of a few lines."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Caspar_Mezzofanti
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Mezzofanti,_Giuseppe_Caspar
Tischendorf - (1866)
https://books.google.com/books?id=EEE2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA176
"Cardinal Mezzofanti honored me with some Greek verses composed in my praise"
==================================
Constantine Tischendorf: The Life and Work of a 19th Century Bible Hunter (2014)
Stanley E. Porter
https://books.google.com/books?id=QhCdBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA123
==================================
The Story of the Manuscripts (1881)
by George Edmands Merrill
https://books.google.com/books?id=rw0-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA74
Tischendorf describes his difficulties in the most interesting manner in a communication to the Leipziger Zeitung of May 31, 1866 ... Cardinal Mai received me with kind recognition; Cardinal Mezzofanti honored me with some Greek verses composed in my praise:
==================================
The Parchments of the Faith
by George Edmunds Merrill
(Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1894), p. 176
https://books.google.com/books?id=EEE2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA176
Tischendorf describes his difficulties in the most interesting way in an article in the Leipziger Zeitung 1 of May 31, 1866: "I had been commended in the most earnest manner by Guizot to the French ambassador, Count Latour Maubourg; I was also favored with many letters of introduction from Prince John of Saxony to his personal friends of high rank; and in addition with a very flattering note from the Archbishop Affre, of Paris, directed to Gregory XVI. The latter, after a prolonged audience granted to me, took an ardent interest in my undertaking ; Cardinal Mai received me with kind recognition; Cardinal Mezzofanti honored me with some Greek verses composed in my praise; but notwithstanding I had to content myself with six hours for a hasty examination of the Codex Vaticanus and the transcription in fac simile of a few lines."
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Steven Avery
Administrator
The Homilist (1864)
The Codex Sinaiticus
https://books.google.com/books?id=fgATAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158
the leaves of the old parchment !
The Codex Sinaiticus
https://books.google.com/books?id=fgATAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158
the leaves of the old parchment !
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I think this is huge - for a very young, Lutheran text scholar of no reputation having private audiences with the Pope for no given reason is unheard of.
And just before his world famous "discovery"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_von_Tischendorf :
Is there any info on where he was or what he was doing? Not just an itinerant
Lutheran pastor preaching on market day I suppose?
Is the translation Wickedpedia's "Italy" the "Vatican City"/the "Papal States"?
And just before his world famous "discovery"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_von_Tischendorf :
In 1843 he visited Italy for thirteen months, before continuing on to Egypt,
Sinai, and the Levant.
Is there any info on where he was or what he was doing? Not just an itinerant
Lutheran pastor preaching on market day I suppose?
Is the translation Wickedpedia's "Italy" the "Vatican City"/the "Papal States"?
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Steven Avery
Administrator
Wikipedia
In 1843 he visited Italy for thirteen months,
A very unusual year, maybe one of the Hebrew years with 13 months?
Tischendorf
Tischendorf, Codex Sinaiticus
David Daniels should have a lot about the Vatican part of this trip, and I have a bit above.
Note also
Tischendorf claims he made a Vaticanus facsimile in 1843
Remember, too, that Tischendorf would rig the Sinaiticus facsimile he created, like at 1 Timothy 3:16. Here we go. Die Sinaibibel: Ihre Entstehung, Herausgabe und Erwerbung (1871) Konstantin von Tischendorf http://books.google.com/books?id=uhhKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA3 Die ältesten griechischen...
www.purebibleforum.com
Steven Avery
Administrator
And I agree this is huge, but it is not my major emphasis, as a lot of the conclusions are conjecture.
What wouldn't be conjecture is if the scholarship showed that there was a pattern to the edits and emendations versus say the TR by GreekSinaiticus and SyriacSinaiticus and Vaticanus.
If they were edited in a pattern that laid the basis for the world-wide rewriting of the bibles that started in the 1880s, that would be gargantuan (bigger than huge). It's one thing to rail at Wescott and Hort for the error of their ways, but quite another if the whole thing is of a much bigger scope. I would argue that the world-wide acceptance of GreekSinaiticus by the "scholars" despite the obviousness of the fraud clearly shows the existence of that scope.
Could we open a thread on the differences between TR to GreekSinaiticus and SyriacSinaiticus and Vaticanus and pull the differences together in one place to see if there is a pattern? Define a benchmark definition of TR and look at the set of differences?
Do the TR->GreekSinaiticus TR->SyriacSinaiticus and TR->Vaticanus all line up? Maybe just NT.
You've done some of these kinds of differences postings and I feel that pulling them together would be useful, even if the pattern isn't there, or it is a different pattern that emerges. Tischedorf himself did a TR->GreekSinaiticus "Spurious According to Tischendorf" if I recall.
If there is a pettern, is the mere existence of Barnabas or Hermes supportive of the pattern, edited or not? Are there some things in them that add to the pattern?
If there is, I would then look at the Clementine Letters in HierosolymitanusGreek to see if there are things that align with the pattern there too (hence my question on the validity of HierosolymitanusGreek).
Are you open to starting such a thread, and if so, where?
If they were edited in a pattern that laid the basis for the world-wide rewriting of the bibles that started in the 1880s, that would be gargantuan (bigger than huge). It's one thing to rail at Wescott and Hort for the error of their ways, but quite another if the whole thing is of a much bigger scope. I would argue that the world-wide acceptance of GreekSinaiticus by the "scholars" despite the obviousness of the fraud clearly shows the existence of that scope.
Could we open a thread on the differences between TR to GreekSinaiticus and SyriacSinaiticus and Vaticanus and pull the differences together in one place to see if there is a pattern? Define a benchmark definition of TR and look at the set of differences?
Do the TR->GreekSinaiticus TR->SyriacSinaiticus and TR->Vaticanus all line up? Maybe just NT.
You've done some of these kinds of differences postings and I feel that pulling them together would be useful, even if the pattern isn't there, or it is a different pattern that emerges. Tischedorf himself did a TR->GreekSinaiticus "Spurious According to Tischendorf" if I recall.
If there is a pettern, is the mere existence of Barnabas or Hermes supportive of the pattern, edited or not? Are there some things in them that add to the pattern?
If there is, I would then look at the Clementine Letters in HierosolymitanusGreek to see if there are things that align with the pattern there too (hence my question on the validity of HierosolymitanusGreek).
Are you open to starting such a thread, and if so, where?
Steven Avery
Administrator
Affre, Denis-Auguste (1793–1848) Archbishop of Paris,
https://hipandthigh.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/slandering-tischendorf/
Archbishop Affre of Paris [Merrill, 176]
Tischendorf, according to George E. Merrill in his book The Parchments of the Faith (a book Pinto cites in his documentary to smear Tischendorf) had become well-known as a critic when he applied to view the Vatican collection in 1843. Merrill explains how Tischendorf even secured a number of letters of recommendation from such men as French Ambassador Count Latour Maunborg and Prince John of Saxony, as well as received a “very flattering note” from Archbishop Affre of Paris [Merrill, 176]
The note from the archbishop, according to Tischendorf, granted him a prolonged audience with the pope.
@swankiestnerd8277 With respect, that non-argument is not going to fly. "It is all very complex and would take too much to make you understand" or "this subject has been studied by experts for a very long time and they agree with my claim" -- it is psuedo-arguments like that are, to use your words, "totally bs". I asked for an argument as to why Sinaiticus is ancient -- because it is not at all settled that it is a 4th century work -- and you responded with nothing substantive except an appeal to credentials. I'll reiterate that the comment to which we are replying remains the most well-researched comment in this entire thread. If you are not familiar with Tischendorf's connections to the Archbishop of Paris, Pope Gregory XVI, Cardinal Mezzofanti and Cardinal Mai, or his personal feelings about the Textus Receptus, it is worthwhile. Studying the merits of Sinaiticus without understanding the motivations of the man who claimed to discover it, or those who supported him, is very incomplete scholarship. Tischendorf's story of how he discovered the manuscript is patently absurd, and was always denied by the monks of St. Catherine. Sinaiticus is a textual Piltdown Man, and we are still in that period before its truth has come to light, when scholars are enthralled by a "discovery", not for what it is, but for what it implies. It is amazing how much credulity and gullibility are required for unbelief.
https://hipandthigh.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/slandering-tischendorf/
Archbishop Affre of Paris [Merrill, 176]
Tischendorf, according to George E. Merrill in his book The Parchments of the Faith (a book Pinto cites in his documentary to smear Tischendorf) had become well-known as a critic when he applied to view the Vatican collection in 1843. Merrill explains how Tischendorf even secured a number of letters of recommendation from such men as French Ambassador Count Latour Maunborg and Prince John of Saxony, as well as received a “very flattering note” from Archbishop Affre of Paris [Merrill, 176]
The note from the archbishop, according to Tischendorf, granted him a prolonged audience with the pope.
@renrichardson6517
8 months ago@swankiestnerd8277 With respect, that non-argument is not going to fly. "It is all very complex and would take too much to make you understand" or "this subject has been studied by experts for a very long time and they agree with my claim" -- it is psuedo-arguments like that are, to use your words, "totally bs". I asked for an argument as to why Sinaiticus is ancient -- because it is not at all settled that it is a 4th century work -- and you responded with nothing substantive except an appeal to credentials. I'll reiterate that the comment to which we are replying remains the most well-researched comment in this entire thread. If you are not familiar with Tischendorf's connections to the Archbishop of Paris, Pope Gregory XVI, Cardinal Mezzofanti and Cardinal Mai, or his personal feelings about the Textus Receptus, it is worthwhile. Studying the merits of Sinaiticus without understanding the motivations of the man who claimed to discover it, or those who supported him, is very incomplete scholarship. Tischendorf's story of how he discovered the manuscript is patently absurd, and was always denied by the monks of St. Catherine. Sinaiticus is a textual Piltdown Man, and we are still in that period before its truth has come to light, when scholars are enthralled by a "discovery", not for what it is, but for what it implies. It is amazing how much credulity and gullibility are required for unbelief.
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