Grantley McDonald - ultimate hand-wave - "none of these authors cite the comma, merely a Trinitarian interpretation of 1 Jn 5:8."- analysis or satire?

Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
PBF

Grantley McDonald - ultimate hand-wave - "none of these authors cite the comma, merely a Trinitarian interpretation of 1 Jn 5:8."- analysis or satire?
https://www.purebibleforum.com/inde...retation-of-1-jn-5-8-analysis-or-satire.1903/

Raising the Ghost of Arius - Grantley McDonald
Tertullian supposedly causes many references
https://www.purebibleforum.com/inde...ost-of-arius-grantley-mcdonald.421/#post-4909
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When the contra authenticity position descends to satire!

Tertullian supposedly causes many references
https://www.purebibleforum.com/inde...ost-of-arius-grantley-mcdonald.421/#post-4909

RGA - p.26
"It should be emphasised that none of these (13) authors cite the comma, merely a Trinitarian interpretation of 1 Jn 5:8."
Grantley McDonald
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Here are the works that were referenced.

Tertullian (Adversus Praxean XXV. l),
Cyprian of Carthage (De ecclesice catholicce unitate 6),
ps.-Eusebius Vercellensis (De Trinitate I, II, VII),
Phoebadius Aginnensis (t after 392) (Contra Arianos 27),
Victricius of Rouen (t c. 407) (De laude sanctorum 4),
Potamius of Lisbon (f after 357) (Epistula ad Athanasium-, Epistula de substantia Patris et Filii et Spiritus sancti),
Augustine (Contra Maximinum II) and
Johannes Maxentius (Responsio contra Acephalos 5).

Latin - tria unum or haec tria unus deus [est]
Marius Victorinus - "God is one, his Son is one and his Holy Spirit is one. and all three are one"
Isidore of Seville citing the phrase in the form tria unum.28
Quodvultdeus - (has been in UBS apparatus)

Greek -
Disputation of Athanasius against Arius at the Council of Nicaea
Origen Ps 122:2 (LXX)
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Phoebadius of Agen (d. AD 392)

● Book Against the Arians.
“The Lord says, I will ask of my Father, and he will give you another advocate." (John xiv. 16.) Thus the Spirit is other than the Son, just as the Son is other than the Father. Thus the third is the Spirit, as the second person is the Son: and so all are one God because the three are one.
(Phoebadius. Book Against the Arians. Chapter 22. Translated in Ayres, Augustine and the Trinity, 2014, p. 98)
RGA p. 24 tres unum sunt, ... Phoebadius Aginnensis († after 392)
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Victricius Rothomagensis, Bishop of Rouen (c. AD 330 – c. 407)

https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/victricius-of-rouen.1853/
Victricius of Rouen († c. 407) writes in his work De laude sanctorum:
“We confess God the Father, we confess God the Son, we confess God the Holy Spirit. We confess that the three are one.”
Victricius Rotomagensis, De laude sanctorum 4, CCSL 64, 74:
“Confitemur Deum Patrem, confitemur Deum Filium, confitemur Sanctum Spiritum Deum. Confitemur quia tres unum sunt.”
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Old Latin references are supportive one another to the antiquity and authenticity of the verse.
https://purebibleforum.com/index.ph...edhacker-bill-brown-euthymius.1822/#post-7303

Some from Grantley's list can be added!

Key Old Latin mss. are

Freisinger Fragment
Leon Palimpsest
Speculum

The Old Latin mss give strong support of authenticity, matching the ECW:
(and also grammar, internal and style evidences showing Greek--> authenticity)

Augustine is special.
Hundredfold is not in Grantley.

Late discoveries include Hundredfold, Priscillian, Potamius, Zacharias Rhetor, and check Caspari (Fidei Chatolice)

Hundredfold Martyrs - Sermon the Hundredfold, Sixty-fold, and Thirty-fold (175-200 AD) De centesima, sexagesima, tricesima
Tertullian - Against Praxeas and other refs
Cyprian - Unity of the Church and Jubaianus

Potamius of Lisbon c. 355-360 (Epistula ad Athanasium-, Epistula de substantia Patris et Filii et Spiritus sancti),

Marius Victorinus - Victorinus Afer - c. 361 against Arius ="God is one, his Son is one and his Holy Spirit is one. and all three are one" - Witness has other allusions?

Books on the Trinity (4 refs) - anything by Eusebius Vericellensis (288-371) has to be in this time frame, other authors can be later
Grantley has
RGA - ps.-Eusebius Vercellensis (De Trinitate I, II, VII), (283-371)
"none of these authors cite the comma, merely a Trinitarian interpretation of 1 Jn 5:8."

RGA - the eighth chapter of the De Trinitate of ps.-Vigilius,
(identical to Fides Athanasii, not said to contain verse, but ps.-Vigilius does not match, perhaps because he is quoting Kunstle.)

RGA - Ps.-Athanasius/ps.-Eusebius Vercellensis, De Trinitate I, CCSL 9:14 (cf. PL 62:243): “[…]
RGA - Ps.-Eusebius Vercellensis, De Trinitate I, CCSL 9:15 - not full verse
RGA - Ps.-Athanasius/ps.-Eusebius Vercellensis, De Trinitate I, CCSL 9:19 (cf. PL 62:246):
RGA - Ps.-Athanasius, De Trinitate X, CCSL 9:145 (cf. PL 62:297
Travis had four refs, which I checked in the earlier days, so one is not included.
De Trinitate Libr Duodecim - title not used by Grantley
Witness has a different approach.
https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/grantley-mcdonald-de-trinitate.1904/

Priscillian (referencing the Cyprian section), Liber apologeticus
Phoebadius of Agen - (Contra Arianos 27),
Victricius of Rouen - (De laude sanctorum 4)
Jerome - Homily 69 on Psalm 91
Jerome's Vulgate Prologue,
Explanatio Fidei ad Cyrillum (complicated history, involving Jerome and Marcus) Marcus Celedensis
Expositio Fidei Chatolice - Caspari, same form as Priscillian (not in Witness by that name) (Grantley-Spain 5th-6th century??)

Johannes Maxentius (Responsio contra Acephalos 5) - not in Witness
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/maxentius.1852/
“The Father is God, the Son, and Holy Ghost is God; not three but one God, one substance or nature, one wisdom, one power, one dominion, one kingdom, one omnipotence, one glory, and yet three subsistences or persons.” - is this the spot from Grantley? Surprised he would include it and of course it is not an allegorical usage.

Confession at the Council of Carthage - Eugenius, hundreds of bishops - Liber fidei catholicæ
Section needs more!

Contra Varimadum

Zacharias Rhetor (b. 465 AD) Disputatio de Mundi Opificio; Migne Graeca, PG 85.1141 - not in Grantley
https://purebibleforum.com/index.ph...-and-holy-ghost-threefold-and-holy-unity.404/

Fulgentius

and additional Old Latin evidences,

Eleutherius (456-531 AD)

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Isidore of Seville - Latin Vulgate
Cassiodorus as well

Supporting the Vulgate as being original in the text of Jerome

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Note: I am omitting a number of allusions, which could be documented separately.
e.g. Priscillianist - Reply to Pope Damasus

Isidore of Seville and Quodvultdeus are possible adds

Check if Eterius and Beatus use Vulgate or Old Latin form
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Grantley does the same with Bellarmine. (Bellarmino)_
Hyginus, Cyprian, Idacius, Athanasius, Fulgentius and Eugenius of Carthage.
And much more

He implies that all those solid references are allegorical to v. 8.
 
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