Romans 9:5 trichotomy interpretation - identity, high Christology, Unitarian - errors on both sides!

[Steven Avery]

Facebook - Pure Bible - Romans 9:5
https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/posts/4529689933789527/

Some improvements to the Facebook page will be made here.

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Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

A beautiful verse, akin to a group of high Christology verses.

Romans 9:5 in the context of high Christology verses - (Joseph John Gurney)
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/romans-9-5-in-the-context-of-high-christology-verses-joseph-john-gurney.2284/

And note a different list of high Christology verses, with only a little overlap.

high Christology pure Bible verses
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/high-christology-pure-bible-verses.459/

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There is also an idea that it is God who is forever praised, not Christ, as in the NIV footnote below. That seems totally wrong, as it would be "God be blessed for ever."

In the haze induced by some Socinian/Unitarian attempts to radically change the grammar, by changing the punctuation, (begun around 1650 by Schlichtingius). the debate about the verse has been skewed by almost all writers, from Burgon to Abbot, to Metzger to Murray (Murray has an excellent grammatical review.)

This is a high-Christology dual-addressing verse, Christ and God, where Christ is "God blessed for ever."

The writers on both sides want to mangle the beautiful AV verse in two opposite ways. One side is very similar to the Granville Sharp Rule for Fools attempt to change the AV in Titus 2:13 (and 2 Peter 1:1).

Here are the two sides.

1) Jesus is God
Examples"
NKJV
of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
NIV
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! [fn] Amen.
Foonote
Or Messiah, who is over all. God be forever praised! Or Messiah. God who is over all be forever praised!

2) Jesus - low Christology
Revised Standard Version:
"To them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God is over all be blessed forever. Amen."
Moffatt Translation:
“the patriarchs are theirs, and theirs too (so far as natural descent goes) is the Christ. (Blessed for evermore be the God who is over all! Amen.)”
New English Bible:
"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them, in natural descent, sprang the Messiah. May God, supreme above all, be blessed for ever! Amen."

==============================

Both sides are wrong in this debate. Romans 9:5 is a beautiful high Christology dual-addressing verse, similar to Titus 2:13 in the AV and dozens of other verses.

Titus 2:13 (AV)
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

It is not a "Jesus is God" verse. So many writers get tripped up trying to force the New Testament to depart from the pure Authorized Version.
In this case, the trip-up is on two opposite sides!

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Related

Apostolic grammatical dual addressing
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/apostolic-grammatical-dual-addressing.50/

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[Steven Avery]

Doxology study

Romans 9:5 doxology - unique identity verse or simply beautiful high Christology

Is the Romans 9:5 doxology unique? Another verse 2 Cor 11:31 has a similar doxology, not claimed as an identity verse. Is it to Christ or to God and Father? 2 Corinthians 11:31 (AV) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. Romans 9:5...

www.purebibleforum.com

 

[Steven Avery]

Murray Harris actually gets close to accepting the AV text.

Origen

I've already told you in another place, "blessed" in that sense follows the definition of "honored in worship, revered, praised, extolled, exalted." Paul is expressing that he is praised and exalted for ever. That has nothing to do with my question, which was about the ECW. Try again. You did...

www.purebibleforum.com

 

[Steven Avery]

The Works of the Learned - Christ is God blessed for ever
This is a review of Sherlock, starting p. 178

The History of the Works of the Learned, Or, An Impartial Account of Books Lately Printed in All Parts of Europe, Volume 8 (1706)
https://books.google.com/books?id=sfovAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA184

This is the key part:
It agrees with where Murray Harris talked about how God and blessed are naturally connected.
- “the natural association of θεὸς with εὐλογητὸς”.

The above fits perfectly with the natural reading of the Authorized Version.

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Scripture Proofs of Our Saviour's Divinity Explained and Vindicated: With an Examination of a Late Discourse Concerning the Descent of the Man Christ Jesus from Heaven, Together with His Ascension to Heaven Again (1706)
William Sherlock
https://books.google.com/books?id=afZiAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA37

Ironically, the Reviewer is steadier and clearer than Sherlock, who tends to veer towards tritheism..

 

[Brianrw]

William Sherlock testifies that in this passage, Paul "assures us also, that he is God" and that this text proves "the Eternal Godhead of our Saviour"​

I have cautioned many times against reading your ideas into the texts you are producing. No one who knows Greek or comments on it would even think to understand the passage in the way you do, it is a noun and an adjective, not a noun and a verb. All the more reason to read through the entire argument where he expounds the passage at the end of the thought on p. 39:

Though he is a Man by his Natural Descent from Abraham and David, he [Paul] assures us also, That he is God; and that we may not suspect that he means only a Titular God, a God by Dignity and Office, not by Nature ; he gives him that known Title of the Supreme God, That he is God Blessed, God whose Name is the Blessed. (p. 37)​

​

And on p. 38, he says,

...the Blessed One is the Blessed God, that alone were a sufficient Proof of the Eternal Godhead of Christ."​

He goes on, against the Socninian appeal that "God" is missing in some quotations of certain Fathers (Cyprian, Hilary, Chrysostom, who we now know did indeed read as we do), that,

​

...all the rest of the Fathers own it, and these very Fathers prove from this very Text, the Eternal Godhead of our Saviour; and therefore it is most probable did read the words as we do. (p. 38)​

​

He goes to conclude,

...let any Man try, whether he can invent more express Words, to signify the Eternal Godhead of our Saviour by, and judge of the incorrigible Perverseness of those Men, whom the most plain and express Words cannot convince. (p.39)​

 

[Steven Avery]

I have cautioned many times against reading your ideas into the texts you are producing. No one who knows Greek or comments on it would even think to understand the passage in the way you do, it is a noun and an adjective, not a noun and a verb.

Lots of straw man argumentation.

First, I pointed out that Sherlock was quirky, essentially a tritheist, and the REVIEWER has the superior understanding.
Focus.

God blessed in the AV is an adjectival phrase, regarding Christ, as pointed out by the Reviewer. There is no ongoing verbal action. Here are two times I shared this with you earlier.

The simple continuous sense -

(Christ is ... or regarding Christ)
God blessed for ever.

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

God blessed is adjectival in English, to the implied noun.

God blessed or God-blessed are both descriptions of Christ. Thus they are adjectival, when seen as one unit, as in the lucid comment of Murray Harris - “the natural association of θεὸς with εὐλογητὸς”.

And yes, there is an implied noun. God blessed (Christ)... If I remember earlier, you chafed at an implied noun.

One person online is calling it a verbal adjective, presumably a verb brought into an adjectival usage. I see your problem here is trying to make blessed into a simple verb form in English and thus not matching the Greek.

The appositional claim is a problem, because it implies "one element identifies the other in a different way". That is not happening here. There is a connectedness but not an equivalent identification.

Your most recent try, you have Paul blessing eternity.

I consulted an English grammarian on this and they were very clear that either the words be hyphenated, or the meaning of the final clause (in English) is that God (subject) blessed (verb) for ever (predicate), so that it is eternity that is blessed.

Thus you have NO “natural association of θεὸς with εὐλογητὸς”.

Here is where you say Christ is blessed.

I've said the passage rightly translated is "who is over all, God blessed forever" where Christ is "over all" and "God" and "blessed forever". In other words,

Thus again you have NO “natural association of θεὸς with εὐλογητὸς”.

Which one will be your 'final answer'?

Eternity is blessed, or Christ is blessed?

 

[Brianrw]

First, I pointed out that Sherlock was quirky, essentially a tritheist, and the REVIEWER has the superior understanding.
Focus.

You offered Sherlock as your prime example as understanding the passage as you do. Now that I've shown you what he actually stated shows he does not support your interpretation at all, you have, like Glassius, abandoned him as problematic. My argument was not straw man at all.

What reviewer are you talking about?

Thus again you have NO “natural association of θεὸς with εὐλογητὸς”.

Which one will be your 'final answer'?

Eternity is blessed, or Christ is blessed?

You need to knock off this nonsense, pretending that I am wavering over the reading, when I am not. And this is the third time now telling you this:​

My reading is, and always has been, "Christ . . . who is . . . God blessed (adj.) forever." However, there is NO VERB in that sentence, nor can their be, as there is NO VERB in the Greek.​

I only related what I was told by the English grammarian if the reading was as you say, and "blessed" was a verb. They said the natural way the passage would be read, if constructed as you say "God (noun) blessed (verb)", is that "Eternity is blessed." This is not, nor ever has been my reading. Basically, they said your English doesn't work here, and that "No" it was not possible to read it as you do, for that very reason.​

God is a predicate nominative (Harris "a second predicate"), and it is followed by a predicate adjective (not a verb!). A predicate nominative renames the subject. A predicate adjective describes the subject. That is the "natural association." "God" is a predicate of "Christ," thus telling us that Christ as God. I.e. "Christ . . . who is God" is the one blessed.​

 

[Steven Avery]

God is a predicate nominative (Harris "a second predicate"), and it is followed by a predicate adjective (not a verb!). A predicate nominative renames the subject. A predicate adjective describes the subject. That is the "natural association."

The natural association is that Christ is "God blessed". Yours is nonsense, since you have God separate from blessed. An unnatural association.

Again, it would have been trivally easy for Paul to write "Christ, who is God, blessed forever." Very simple. Add two words, add a comma.

And the AV did not put in any added words, it italics, which would have been appropriate if they thought that is the meaning.. You ignore the basics. And de facto add words (and the extra punctuation comma) to the Bible text that are not there.

And I have told you again and again that there is no verb in the AV text, where God blessed is adjectival, describing Christ. You wrongly claimed that this would need a hyphen. Your grammarian made the same error. It is questionable in modern English, but more important is pure Bible English.

 

[Steven Avery]

What reviewer are you talking about?

That was 100% clear in my post.

The Works of the Learned - Christ is God blessed for ever
This is a review of Sherlock, starting p. 178

The History of the Works of the Learned, Or, An Impartial Account of Books Lately Printed in All Parts of Europe, Volume 8 (1706)
https://books.google.com/books?id=sfovAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA184

.....
Ironically, the Reviewer is steadier and clearer than Sherlock, who tends to veer towards tritheism..

Ironically, the Reviewer is steadier and clearer than Sherlock, who tends to veer towards tritheism..

 

[Steven Avery]

Colin G Kruse (b. 1938)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_G._Kruse
Melbourne School of Theology
https://www.mst.edu.au/faculty/colin-kruse/

gets it right in his second option.

Paul's Letter to the Romans
by Colin G. Kruse
https://books.google.com/books?id=vWlyCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA373

All the claims of Brian go down the tubes.
"does not involve so close an identification of Christ with God." - No apposition -
"Christ .. is blessed by God forever" - no complaints about hypens, verbs, grammar, yada yada.

He is actually including 4 options rather than 3, because he takes a text closer to the AV, but with God being praised, rather than Christ. A weak option that I am not placing in the trichotomy.

 

[Brianrw]

All the claims of Brian go down the tubes.
"does not involve so close an identification of Christ with God." - No apposition -
"Christ .. is blessed by God forever" - no complaints about hypens, verbs, grammar, yada yada.

"God blessed" as you read it or "Blessed by God" requires the Greek construction ευλογημένος από τον Θεόν.​

They don't "go down the tubes," but it seems you've finally produced someone that agrees with your interpretation. It's not an argument informed by a knowledge of the Greek, but a survey of the different English passages.

My response to him is the same as my response to you in the headline above. I'd also gladly place against this oddity the nearly 70 orthodox writers from the 1600s and 1700s that had no trouble understanding the passage as referring to Christ as "God," and also the unanimous host of Greek writers who understood it the same.

You can't translate an adjective in Greek as a verb in English.​

In Greek, when a nominative noun is paired with a nominative adjective, and the adjective does not have an article, it is in the predicate position and describes the subject (i.e. Christ). "God" is a predicate nominative, which renames the subject (i.e., Christ). It means quite basically that Christ, who is God, is the one blessed. I even dusted off and quoted the rule to you from my Greek Basics grammar from 1993, but you just decided "nope" was an appropriate rebuttal. Here's a link to a more recent edition, feel free to read for yourself. It's the second bullet under "predicate" (the subject, which has the article, is actually "Christ")

You have to deal with that argument, not merely hunt for authors that might read it the same as you. If you feel you are so correct in this understanding, I want you to ask two simple questions (feel free to examine the Greek grammar above):

What specific Greek rule are you following that understands an adjective in the predicate position as having the force of verb accompanied by a preposition? And why, if it means "blessed by God," was it not written "blessed by God"?​

 

[Steven Avery]

My reading is, and always has been, "Christ . . . who is . . . God blessed (adj.) forever."​

If you want this reading to work as “Christ...who is...God” then you must have punctuation after God, likely a comma. Without that you have a grammatical mess, with God having two roles.

Noun Apposition to Christ
Adjectival with blessed — Christ who is “God blessed” - the "natural association"

You are playing two ends against the middle.

You rail falsely against the AV comma placement, and you rail falsely about a supposed need for a hyphen, but at least be honest enough to show your comma after God.

With that comma you radically change the syntax, and allow God to have a type of dual use.

 

[Steven Avery]

"God blessed" as you read it or "Blessed by God" requires the Greek construction ευλογημένος από τον Θεόν.​

They don't "go down the tubes," but it seems you've finally produced someone that agrees with your interpretation. It's not an argument informed by a knowledge of the Greek, but a survey of the different English passages.

My response to him is the same as my response to you in the headline above. I'd also gladly place against this oddity the nearly 70 orthodox writers from the 1600s and 1700s that had no trouble understanding the passage as referring to Christ as "God," and also the unanimous host of Greek writers who understood it the same.

Your first sentence has no support from anybody. Murray Harris could have made that point in his section on the word order. He never claimed any fundamental difference.

Since Colin Kruse was involved in Exegetical Commentaries on the Greek New Testament, your second sentence falls to the ground.

How many of the 70 specifically say that “Christ is God over all”?

 

[Steven Avery]

"God blessed" as you read it or "Blessed by God" requires the Greek construction ευλογημένος από τον Θεόν.​

They don't "go down the tubes," but it seems you've finally produced someone that agrees with your interpretation. It's not an argument informed by a knowledge of the Greek, but a survey of the different English passages.

My response to him is the same as my response to you in the headline above. I'd also gladly place against this oddity the nearly 70 orthodox writers from the 1600s and 1700s that had no trouble understanding the passage as referring to Christ as "God," and also the unanimous host of Greek writers who understood it the same.

You can't translate an adjective in Greek as a verb in English.​

In Greek, when a nominative noun is paired with a nominative adjective, and the adjective does not have an article, it is in the predicate position and describes the subject (i.e. Christ). "God" is a predicate nominative, which renames the subject (i.e., Christ). It means quite basically that Christ, who is God, is the one blessed. I even dusted off and quoted the rule to you from my Greek Basics grammar from 1993, but you just decided "nope" was an appropriate rebuttal. Here's a link to a more recent edition, feel free to read for yourself. It's the second bullet under "predicate" (the subject, which has the article, is actually "Christ")

You have to deal with that argument, not merely hunt for authors that might read it the same as you. If you feel you are so correct in this understanding, I want you to ask two simple questions (feel free to examine the Greek grammar above):

What specific Greek rule are you following that understands an adjective in the predicate position as having the force of verb accompanied by a preposition? And why, if it means "blessed by God," was it not written "blessed by God"?​

Romans 9:5 - God blessed - or - blessed by God
https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/romans-9-5-god-blessed-or-blessed-by-god.2316/

Moving these discussions to one spot.
Feel free to bring over from this thread.

Btw, bold is fine, super-large print is so-so, the two together are not helpful for readers. There is a large that is not super-large. 15 or 18.

 

[Steven Avery]

Romans: Introduction
edited by Alfred Ernest Garvie
https://books.google.com/books?id=kEFaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA209

Albert Ernest Garvie (1861-1945)
https://jasongoroncy.com/2008/07/18/introducing-alfred-ernest-garvie/
https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:eek:dnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-33344

His Revised Version text is almost identical to the AV.

Garvie does allow the doxology to be to Christ, without any apposition. The natural reading of the AV.

 

[Steven Avery]

The Epistle of Paul to the Romans (1869
By Johann Peter Lange, Fr. Rud Fay
https://books.google.com/books?id=shFBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA308

 

[Brianrw]

Garvie does allow the doxology to be to Christ, without any apposition. The natural reading of the AV.

But that's not what he writes. He understands the R.V. translation as ascribing (i.e. to Christ) the unqualified form of the title of God.

This is reinforced in the comments that follow afterward where he cautions that it should not be used so dogmatically to assert the doctrine of Christ's Divinity (viz. on account of the hesitation to admit Paul would call Christ "God," and thus the proposed variants).

 

[Steven Avery]

Fair enough, Garvie makes the mistake of implying an apposition in his conclusion, within awkward wording. .

The true doxology to Christ, with "over all" is enough to assert divinity compared to the low Christology variants, there does not have to any direct declaration "Jesus is God". Divinity is a very flexible word.

 

[Brianrw]

No, it is not awkwardly worded and he's not implying that the passage speaks of the Deity of Christ by accident. He is not referencing mere "divinity," specifically notes "so unqualified a form of the title of God" as applied to Christ.

 

[Steven Avery]

His RV text, like the AV text, simply does not support the claim.

AV - and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

God does not have two differing functions in this sentence.

The irony is that only a couple of commentators, so far, realize that various commentators have distorted what their English Bible says.

You can make it into

Christ .. who is over all, God ...

only by adding punctuation, usually a comma, after God. The word would still be single function, but that function would be apposition to Christ. What this has taught me is that the lemming approach to commentary has deep roots.

In fact, I do find this comma frequently being added, not just John Gill as I mentioned earlier. It is more honest, and it is NOT the AV.

Theophilus Lindsay
https://books.google.com/books?id=s2EVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA67

Frédéric Louis Godet (1883) gives Gess
https://books.google.com/books?id=E91JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA345

George Washington Carraway
https://books.google.com/books?id=je7UAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA2

To make the English word do double-duty is quite difficult, you would have to add words (which could come from a longer Greek text or from an AV italics interpretation.)
.
One try would be:

Christ .. who is over all, God, (who is) blessed for ever.

But even that is wrong, because it loses Christ being blessed, so really you need the word twice rather than double-duty:

Christ .. who is over all, God, Christ is God blessed for ever.

And I set up a special post or thread on this issue of double-duty.